Class locking weapons, where do you stand?

Lowlife

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So at the moment we know that class locking certain weapons may be the current plan. What is your opinion on this? Do you want to be a liche with a massive two handed greatsword? Do you want to be a vampire that employs spells from their grimoire? Do you agree with making certain weapons only available for particular classes?

Personally I can understand the decision to class locking weapons to a degree, it doesn't make much sense for a frail bodied liche to be lugging around a weapon that probably weighs as much as themselves. I however do enjoy the idea of that still being a possibility whilst employing some strong cons to to that sort of freedom. For example the liche with said two handed great weapon, while their melee offense would be greatly improved maybe it would debilitate their ability to cast most high level spells and leave them with just basic low level (almost cantrips) available. With the inverse a revenant with a spell book or magic staff of sorts would have their melee effectiveness greatly reduced but grant them access to lower level magics. I do like the idea of player freedom and decision to be able to choose uncharacteristic weapons but i do feel it should come at a game changing but high cost. How does everyone else feel about this?
 

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Thanks for starting this thread, @Lowlife. :)

To able to have a conscious opinion on that, I would have to understand how the specialization of attributes work for each class. But basically, I believe that every class should be able to wield weapons and use powers that are thematically fitting with their lore. If that means weapon types will be class-restricted, it's fine for me.

When I pondered on the stream what kinds of weapons a physically specialized Liche would use, I was mostly thinking of ways that the Liche could manipulate the material world with his magick. For example, I questioned whether they would telekinetically lift the weapons of his zombies or dead enemies off the ground and spin around him to create a lethal barrier. Another way would be fragmenting objects in the world and sending them flying towards the enemies. These are not weapons, but the magickal way in which the attacks are manifested are fitting with the Liche's lore and theme.

As for actual items he could use, I'd imagine a Liche would indeed wield a wizard's repertoire, such as amulets, staves, scepters, books, bracelets, etc. Items that are typically associated with magick. But I don't know if it would be interesting for the Liche to launch "magickal orbs of light" towards the enemies with those items, because that has already been done so many times in so many games.

While I don't think it makes much sense for the Liche to be seen wielding a gigantic hammer, I also don't see why he couldn't manipulate one by "possessing it" and controlling it from afar, and that would go for any weapon. An example of this would be Alucard's flying sword, of the Castlevania series. A Liche would do that in the same way that he would manipulate his own body, which is not directly attached to a soul, by "pulling" invisible strings magickally as if his body was that of a puppet. The Liche we read about on Of Liches I doesn't "move", it floats, as if sustained by magickal forces. The same would extend to their weapons.


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DukeVaeVictis

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I don't believe that people should be punished because they want to use a certain weapon. Liche are fragile for sure, but if we are talking about muscles then muscles on a dead thing is bascially just rotten meat which serves no puporse other then it will slough off in pieces.

I believe that lore is just that lore, I guess in a way in a lore way it can be explained that a liche which uses two-handed weaponry reinvigorate his/her biology by each kill ... I would honestly like to see the combat system before making an opinion about this though but at this moment, I would say no to class weapon locking.
 

shinybri

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It would be interesting to me if all classes could try to use any weapon they want. Maybe there are ways around things, like the flying sword example Xan made, and figuring them out could be neat. But seeing a Liche on the front line doing the same choreographed movements of a Revenant would annoy me so much I might put the game down. What would even be the purpose of having classes then? It would just erode the lore into pointless background noise.
 

DukeVaeVictis

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Lore is cool and all but without interesting gameplay or engaging gameplay lore becomes pointless as the game loses it charm. I don't see why a liche shouldn't be able to use heavier weapons as I think it should be more of a build thing more than lore. I don't want this to be taken the wrong way as I love the lore behind this game and gameplay ideas they said during the livestreams (why I backed the game lol).

But lore in itself is a pointless background noise if the gameplay is lacking. Should a liche be as powerful and efficient as a revenant though? Nah but the option should be there.
 

shinybri

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Wait you just said Liche shouldn't be as powerful as a Rev, but then said the option should be there? Which is it? Yes or no? I'm honestly down with just watching how things play out, and this particular idea could go either way but I'm just not about trying to please everyone and seeing the game turn into another run-of-the-mill MMORPG where your generic Elf avatar can be whatever it wants to be. It would feel like the game plays the same for everything, but with different skins for "variety."

Plus I think the game's main focus is lore, and things will trickle down from there. The insane amount we have so far is a testament to that. I trust these guys to find a good balance and reflect everything we've learned about lore in the combat styles :)
 

DukeVaeVictis

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Wait you just said Liche shouldn't be as powerful as a Rev, but then said the option should be there? Which is it? Yes or no? I'm honestly down with just watching how things play out, and this particular idea could go either way but I'm just not about trying to please everyone and seeing the game turn into another run-of-the-mill MMORPG where your generic Elf avatar can be whatever it wants to be. It would feel like the game plays the same for everything, but with different skins for "variety."

Plus I think the game's main focus is lore, and things will trickle down from there. The insane amount we have so far is a testament to that. I trust these guys to find a good balance and reflect everything we've learned about lore in the combat styles :)

Being tied into classes of what can be used and what can't is actually more in line of the reference you tried to make with the generic elf though. 😚 I want to use Dark Souls as an example, You could use whatever weapon you wanted to use depending on your build, if you so desired you could mix melee with magic.

a cleric can fight but he will never be able to fight as good as the paladin, being on equal levels is not the point though the point is the cleric has the ability to fight, hence why I think it is better to let people use whatever weapons they want to use. I don't see much of a point to restrict weapons on classes if the game is not following the trinity model. I think it would be a more fun experience if people could come up with builds which they want to use and have the classes as a sort of a template while not be restricted or locked down.
 

Livin

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I was always of the mentality that such limitations are meant to be overcome either through equipment or skill mastery.

For a battle Liche I envisioned them having to craft or otherwise acquire suits of muscle (think Kain's Flesh Armor) that increases their strength and stamina to levels where wielding cumbersome heavy weapons is possible. They'd never even be close to what other classes like the Revenant could achieve by default but they'd at least be able to function in that capacity.
 
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Lowlife

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Thanks for starting this thread, @Lowlife. :)

To able to have a conscious opinion on that, I would have to understand how the specialization of attributes work for each class. But basically, I believe that every class should be able to wield weapons and use powers that are thematically fitting with their lore. If that means weapon types will be class-restricted, it's fine for me.

When I pondered on the stream what kinds of weapons a physically specialized Liche would use, I was mostly thinking of ways that the Liche could manipulate the material world with his magick. For example, I questioned whether they would telekinetically lift the weapons of his zombies or dead enemies off the ground and spin around him to create a lethal barrier. Another way would be fragmenting objects in the world and sending them flying towards the enemies. These are not weapons, but the magickal way in which the attacks are manifested are fitting with the Liche's lore and theme.

As for actual items he could use, I'd imagine a Liche would indeed wield a wizard's repertoire, such as amulets, staves, scepters, books, bracelets, etc. Items that are typically associated with magick. But I don't know if it would be interesting for the Liche to launch "magickal orbs of light" towards the enemies with those items, because that has already been done so many times in so many games.

While I don't think it makes much sense for the Liche to be seen wielding a gigantic hammer, I also don't see why he couldn't manipulate one by "possessing it" and controlling it from afar, and that would go for any weapon. An example of this would be Alucard's flying sword, of the Castlevania series. A Liche would do that in the same way that he would manipulate his own body, which is not directly attached to a soul, by "pulling" invisible strings magickally as if his body was that of a puppet. The Liche we read about on Of Liches I doesn't "move", it floats, as if sustained by magickal forces. The same would extend to their weapons.


I love the idea and mental image of the liche manipulating melee weapons with magic of sorts!
 

Lowlife

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I was always of the mentality that such limitations are meant to be overcome either through equipment or skill mastery.

For a battle Liche I envisioned them having to craft or otherwise acquire suits of muscle (think Kain's Flesh Armor) that increases their strength and stamina to levels where wielding cumbersome heavy weapons is possible. They'd never even be close to what other classes like the Revenant could achieve by default but they'd at least be able to function in that capacity.
That would awesome! The idea of a liche fashioning a a flesh exoskeleton to enhance their streng sounds absolutely brutal
 

Livin

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That would awesome! The idea of a liche fashioning a a flesh exoskeleton to enhance their streng sounds absolutely brutal
I'm happy you like it. Its what I love about magic in fiction, as long as you attach an equivalent cost it usually makes almost anything possible in a multitude of ways.

You're a liche that wants to use a sword but your frail body would break or get pulled apart from the weight and momentum as you swing it.

-You could grind and work to build a suit of living flesh that reinforces your body and increases your strength to where wielding it isn't a problem.
-You could use telekinesis or a form of puppet magic to swing it without even having to physically handle it.
-You could go the Vanity magic route, rehome your soul in the corpse of someone that was a warrior/soldier and sacrifice some of your mana supply to sustain the body's flesh through continuous rejuvenation spells so it doesn't decay and become frail, allowing you to wield a weapon just as the body was able to when it was alive.
 
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Varik Keldun

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I'm fine either way when it comes to open / closed weapon systems
If it was an open weapon system it would have to be sensible. as Livin suggested "overcome through equip or skill mastery / specialization"

That being said lets take a look at other RPG / ARPGs / MMOs

Final Fantasy series in general - items are restricted to class / job / person (no real big issues)
Path of Exile - open weapon system, as long as you meet the requirements you can play anything you want its just a matter of what avatar you want to play as (this is what Dennis and team want to avoid)
Diablo series - for the most part its open but there are some class restricted items and most items fit certain classes a lot better than others.
World of Warcraft - class restricted items - (unless your a hunter :p )
Guild Wars 2 - mostly open weapon system (a few restrictions) - each class has different skills for the same items (a sword in the hands of a warrior is different than in the hands of a guardian or elementalist
In Dungeons and Dragons(3.5e) you could use any weapon/armor at the cost of taking a skill proficiency negative. you could overcome this by training the weapon or taking a cross class or even prestige class.

What I DON'T want to see is more along the line of items that get dropped and are unusable / untradeable / unsellable (vendor)

say I am playing a Liche and a Unique 2 handed greatsword drops with perfect stats.... And I can't trade it with anyone for something i could use/want, because it's soulbound to my character/account.

It does get frustrating when your playing one character and all you are getting is drops for other classes that you are not playing.

Though, this example is directly from Diablo 3 - they did originally have the real money / gold auction house which flopped.
then they took that away and set the drop tables to lean more heavily towards the class you were currently playing, which later gradually opened up for the other classes so you could farm for other characters on your account or in your group.
 

Livin

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What I DON'T want to see is more along the line of items that get dropped and are unusable / untradeable / unsellable (vendor)

say I am playing a Liche and a Unique 2 handed greatsword drops with perfect stats.... And I can't trade it with anyone for something i could use/want, because it's soulbound to my character/account.

It does get frustrating when your playing one character and all you are getting is drops for other classes that you are not playing.

Though, this example is directly from Diablo 3 - they did originally have the real money / gold auction house which flopped.
then they took that away and set the drop tables to lean more heavily towards the class you were currently playing, which later gradually opened up for the other classes so you could farm for other characters on your account or in your group.
Agreed and Yes Please!

Nothing more annoying than rare or rich gear in my inventory that might as well go into the waste bin because I can't use or trade it. If they do lock certain weapons to classes then I'd hope they'd also lock what we get to stuff we can actually use if we're not able to do anything else with it.
 

shinybri

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I'm happy you like it. Its what I love about magic in fiction, as long as you attach an equivalent cost it usually makes almost anything possible in a multitude of ways.

You're a liche that wants to use a sword but your frail body would break or get pulled apart from the weight and momentum as you swing it.

-You could grind and work to build a suit of living flesh that reinforces your body and increases your strength to where wielding it isn't a problem.
-You could use telekinesis or a form of puppet magic to swing it without even having to physically handle it.
-You could go the Vanity magic route, rehome your soul in the corpse of someone that was a warrior/soldier and sacrifice some of your mana supply to sustain the body's flesh through continuous rejuvenation spells so it doesn't decay and become frail, allowing you to wield a weapon just as the body was able to when it was alive.
Hm... ok you guys have changed my mind :LOL: I love this.
 

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I'm happy you like it. Its what I love about magic in fiction, as long as you attach an equivalent cost it usually makes almost anything possible in a multitude of ways.

You're a liche that wants to use a sword but your frail body would break or get pulled apart from the weight and momentum as you swing it.

-You could grind and work to build a suit of living flesh that reinforces your body and increases your strength to where wielding it isn't a problem.
-You could use telekinesis or a form of puppet magic to swing it without even having to physically handle it.
-You could go the Vanity magic route, rehome your soul in the corpse of someone that was a warrior/soldier and sacrifice some of your mana supply to sustain the body's flesh through continuous rejuvenation spells so it doesn't decay and become frail, allowing you to wield a weapon just as the body was able to when it was alive.
This does sound awesome, but we do seem to be focusing on the Liche primarily. How about a Ghoul using a Grimoire or Staff. Those just don't fit the Ghoul at all and while seeing a ghoul wearing a top hat and monocle casting spells would be funny, it really doesn't fit how we've seen the Ghoul so far.
 

Livin

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This does sound awesome, but we do seem to be focusing on the Liche primarily. How about a Ghoul using a Grimoire or Staff. Those just don't fit the Ghoul at all and while seeing a ghoul wearing a top hat and monocle casting spells would be funny, it really doesn't fit how we've seen the Ghoul so far.
I don't believe we are in era of top hats and monocles, but if we were I'd love it. It would be my the Jack the Ripper build.

As for giving the ghouls magic it could be magic of a more primal nature. I'm picturing a shaman to the spirit that turned them all into ghouls in the first place, that spirit twisting the knowledge of the grimoires as its words are lifted and fused to the ghoul by engraving it upon their flesh and later burning it away to make room whenever that ghoul finds something greater to take its place.

Edit
Now that I think about the exchanging of grimoires, the engraved flesh should rot off like in the art with the freshly engraved flesh from the new grimoire being revealed as the old falls off.
 
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just scrolled really quickly so Apologies if this was mentioned or suggested already BUT i think instead of class locking weapons maybe have them Tree locked instead. Physical Liche? Can use big boi swords or hammers and Rev gear etc.
Magick Vampire? throws on some Liche gear to increase mana and crack open a book to blast away etc
almost Class Switching rather than locking.
Ghoul will have an open bar so to speak weapon wise depening on who he currently ate etc maybe.

State locked weapons there we go thats what i was trying to think of.
 

Galen

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So at the moment we know that class locking certain weapons may be the current plan. What is your opinion on this? Do you want to be a liche with a massive two handed greatsword? Do you want to be a vampire that employs spells from their grimoire? Do you agree with making certain weapons only available for particular classes?

Personally I can understand the decision to class locking weapons to a degree, it doesn't make much sense for a frail bodied liche to be lugging around a weapon that probably weighs as much as themselves. I however do enjoy the idea of that still being a possibility whilst employing some strong cons to to that sort of freedom. For example the liche with said two handed great weapon, while their melee offense would be greatly improved maybe it would debilitate their ability to cast most high level spells and leave them with just basic low level (almost cantrips) available. With the inverse a revenant with a spell book or magic staff of sorts would have their melee effectiveness greatly reduced but grant them access to lower level magics. I do like the idea of player freedom and decision to be able to choose uncharacteristic weapons but i do feel it should come at a game changing but high cost. How does everyone else feel about this?
I'm of the opinion that class locking weapons is acceptable within reason. For example, WoW did it well for years. Death Knights could use greatswords, great hammers, and they could use longswords and hammers. I probably wouldn't play a Revenant if they were warhammer only.
 

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I don't need a complete armor and weapon lockout but I think there should be a few things that, if not totally locked, you have to be properly specced to use. There should also be a penalty for using items not "native" to your class so you can't be as good with it as other classes.

It would make no sense to see a Revenant in robes and a crossbow (I would not mind them having a giant bow that would shot arrows through a whole line of enemies) or trying to be a spellcaster. This game has a huge number of player classes already and I don't want everyone to move to the middle. Choices have to matter or what is the point of having classes in the first place. You want to tank, take a tank character. You want spells, be a spell caster. You want speed, take a fast character.

Hate it or love it, that is what makes Overwatch such an attractive game to so many. Each character plays a different way and the combination of the classes is what gives you the dynamic play. Part of the pitch for the game was that you would have asymmetrical gameplay and if any character can be anything then you lose that.

So looking at the trinary setup for the game a Revenant, Ghoul, or Wight should never be great at using magic but may have a few spells that fit those classes. Not exactly sure what the essential class will be like but seems to be a possession type of magic skill rather than direct magic attacks. While the Vampire, Wraith, and Banshee would have more magic at their disposal but never be as great as the Liche.