Class locking weapons, where do you stand?

Livin

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Sorry in advance if this confusing

Should A Liche be able to match the physical power of a Revenant, under certain conditions I'd say yes but hear me out.

From what I've seen of the power distribution in the classes is done by 3rds, meaning every class gets at least a third in each realm of power. At level 1, a Revenant would have three times the physical power of a level 1 Liche, Wraith and Wight. From there they all can level themselves towards whatever they want and equip themselves in the same vein. If the Revenant were to moderately maintain leveling their physical power then they would always surpass the other three in that capacity but if they were to neglect the physical enough in favor of either magic or essential then the other classes could catch up if they dumped everything into physical and neglecting all else. That's one way.

Another way it is possible is through level disparity. Sticking with the rule of 3s, those three classes could match a physically minded Revenant in the physical arena if their level was three times larger and did the aforementioned dumping everything into the physical. A level 15 Battle Liche would have a chance but not a guaranteed victory against a level 5 Warrior Revenant (50/50).

The same principles applies to liches with magic and wights with essential.
 
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Elveone

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A bit late to the party but here's my 2 cents.

Honestly - I don't really care as everything can work well depending on what exactly the system is. The important part would be what exactly is a weapon type in the RPG system in Deadhaus. IMO different weapon types should not just be stat-sticks with different attack animations but a part of the build of the character. The ideal system would be a mix of what we see in Elder Scrolls Online, Guild Wars 2 and Devil May Cry. And because it would be just plainly confusing to leave it at that - let me explain.

In ESO there are two type of Skills - class skills and weapon skills and basically every class can equip every weapon. Weapon skills take just as much development as class skills so you can heavily invest in the weapon skills alone and develop your mastery with a certain type of weapons. Additionally each skill can morph into two different skills when you reach a certain level with it.

In GW2 your character cannot equip every weapon but a every class can equip several weapon types. Each weapon-class combination grants you a different skillset but you cannot develop those skills further.

In DMC you can use any weapon you find and you don't unlock skills but you acquire additional moves and combos you can do with your weapons.

What I would want to see is a system where characters can equip multiple weapon types and each combination of class and weapon type gives you additional skill tree of moves to unlock with some of the moves being mutually exclusive. That is in addition to the general class skills the classes have. That way you can have multiple class-weapon combinations while keeping the identity of the class and allowing for multiple different fantasies with a class and have a role-playing depth of a particular weapon and you can have non-weapon-based characters as well. The downside of such a system is that it would take a lot of development time to implement.

So what would that kind of system look like in practice? For simplicity sake let's look at 3 weapons - hammer, sword, staff, and 3 classes - Vampire, Revenant and Liche. I'm leaving the non-weapon skills aside and the weapon skills will also be extremely simplistic and possibly a bit non-sensical. The Vampire can wield all 3 weapons, the Revenant would be able to wield the hammer and the sword but things the staff is a bit clumsy so he isn't interested and the Liche can wield the staff and the sword but the hammer - this shit's too heavy and pointless.
For a Revenant the hammer is used predominantly to knock people down or away. His basic attack is a three swipe combo with each of the first two hits knocking the enemies away a little bit and the finisher being a large downward swing that pins one enemy to the ground and creates a shockwave that knocks the other enemies back. As a upgrade to that basic combo he has two options. The first one starts hammering on the target that he has pinned down repeatedly with follow up blows and the second one is another huge downward smash that sends another shockwave to the enemies around.
A sword wielding Revenant on the other hand would be all about that cleave damage. Again, basic three swing combo with each attack going through enemies and the final one being a larger swing. Two upgrade options for the combo - first one upgrades the combo so each swing adds a bleeding stack and the second option being a fourth 360 degree attack added to the combo that taunts nearby enemies.

Liches on the other hand prefer staves as their primary weapons and they do swing them around but instead of hitting enemies with the shaft they project an aura of magical energy that slams into enemies and travels at a distance. They generally have an endless two swing repeating combo that just shoots projectiles. One of the upgrade paths would be to make that a three swing combo with the third swing projecting a larger fireball. The other though might be to change the animation completely and instead of shooting that projectile forward the magical force concentrates into a scythe and cleaves nearby enemies.
A Liche can still swing a sword though. A slow basic three combo strike with kind of weak damage that also weakens their enemies a bit is the default starting combo - the Liche can barely swing that sword but he projects his magic through it and it serves as a debuff. The upgrades though go in two directions from now on. In the first one the liche grows more muscles magically and starts swinging the sword more proficiently and a lot faster. The second upgrade option is to use telekinesis to lift up the sword and while it doesn't increase the swing speed a lot initially, the sword is now a projectile that you send forward and black at a distance.

The Vampire now, he is a jack of all trades... possibly master of some. He can use all three weapons but he doesn't do it like his comrades either.
The Vampire feels most at home with a sword. He swings it quickly and makes shallow cuts but his starting combo has 4 fast strikes in it instead of 3 and the finisher is a lunge forward attack that impales his target and inflicts bleeding. His first possible upgrade would be a fifth attack where he reaches into the would and draws a little bit of blood, healing himself. Alternatively he could choose a slashing attack that also lets him jump back as the fifth attack in the combo.
A hammer is a very different tool for a Vampire than it is for a Revenant. He cannot crush his enemies and knock them back but the vampire uses his hammer to aim for the enemies heads and he has a small chance of stunning them. It is a basic three hit combo to begin with. As a fourth strike the vampire can choose to either have a precise blow that has a 50/50 chance of stunning his target or a sneaky blow with the hammer to the knee that definitely cripples it.
For a Vampire the staff is not all about projecting magical force. Usually he swings it rapidly and strikes multiple foes with it at close range(think a shaolin monk with a staff instead of mage). He does project blood magic with the final blow of his combo though for a bit of an aoe effect. First upgrade path would be to upgrade the staff to a ranged weapon having the staff project blood magic forward for an increased range of all of his attacks making it not quite a ranged weapon but still extending its range significantly. The second option is to concentrate on the martial prowess and upgrade the staff with additional combo attacks.

This was a bit longer than I initially thought it would be but I hope you liked the ideas. Have fun!
 

Livin

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It would make no sense to see a Revenant in robes and a crossbow (I would not mind them having a giant bow that would shot arrows through a whole line of enemies) or trying to be a spellcaster.
How about robes that are perpetually scorched with the edges still glowing from the embers that linger and revealing a suit of armor through the burnt gaps of said robe, the scorch caused by the violet flames of the Revenant that are erupting from every small gap in their armor and using their magic to cast those same flames upon their enemies in various ways?
 

Elveone

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On one hand I don't think people appreciate how much of a murder tool a crossbow actually is.

On the other - I don't think classes should be one trick ponies with a singular possible playstyle per class.
 

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How about robes that are perpetually scorched with the edges still glowing from the embers that linger and revealing a suit of armor through the burnt gaps of said robe, the scorch caused by the violet flames of the Revenant that are erupting from every small gap in their armor and using their magic to cast those same flames upon their enemies in various ways?

That sounds like a really cool Wraith. Can't wait to build it. I guess for this game I just have a very strong image of my Revenant. Jumping in the middle of a group of enemies with a huge pollaxe with good sized hammer head for bashing, a broad axe blade for cleaving and both ends pointy for so stabby stabby action. :D

On one hand I don't think people appreciate how much of a murder tool a crossbow actually is.

On the other - I don't think classes should be one trick ponies with a singular possible playstyle per class.

I have a good appreciation for the crossbow, I like to play stealth and range characters a lot. But I see the Revenant as Hulk Smash not sniping from the back.

A crossbow for Revenant would be more like an oxybeles/ballista. LOL
 
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Roband

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The way i interpred it, all classes will be able to use all weapons but just not with the same level of proficency

so if you are a Liche you can actually equip a greatsword but you will never use it with the same level of skill as a Revenant, maybe it will be possible to match the damege of the single hit but it will never have the same effectivness

What i mean is (aside from the damege of the single hit) the variety/effectivness of combos, the wielding and attacking speed, the precision/critical chance, eventual class skills that blend better with a melee type of engagement and/or weapons ecc.

So it's locked if you think in terms of efficency, but it doesn't actually "prevent" you from doing it. It would be more like "if you choose a melee class you will be more proficent at (surprise surprise) melee"

Still we know that even melee class will have magic, my personal take is that it will be still related to each of the classes. So a Revenat that specialize in magic could become something akin a battle mage, the magic empwering the Revenat abilities on the battlefield while a Liche will have a larger variety of spells and more about ranged attacks

Not sure what a Liche that specializes in phisical aspect would be like honestly

For a lore prospective i can't think at any logical reason to explain why a Liche would throw away all the OP spells it accumulated over the decades/centuries to start waving (without any actual training i may add) a gratsword

The only reason i can come up with is to be not totally defenseless in a melee confrontation but i struggle to belive there are no spells in the world that can cope to that

Maybe i will change my mind once we will know how skills and abilities work, for now it seems pretty illogical to me
 

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Hmmm... I think there should be some overlap, especially in classes that are similar. Like a vampire or a wight being able to use a revenant's oversized maul, and other classes having a few options from maybe 2 of the other classes.

But I also think it needs to be based on what each class is strongest in.

Perhaps the off weapon options should be unique to each class, like a Vampire's spells being different from the Lich's spells, and a Banshee's use of a sword or dagger being different from a Vampire's, and so on.

The differences in the classes will define them, but unless they're really unique to the point that NOTHING could use their weapons, there should be some overlap.
 
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Szarekh the Silent King

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I think class locking weapons makes a lot of sense, but only doing so partially and perhaps in respect to a class' position on the triangle. Like someone earlier said, it doesn't make much sense for a lich, who has likely spent the entirety of his life and unlife honing and advancing his spellcraft, to suddenly turn away from that skillset and decide that a great weapon is the optimal engine of war so far as he is concerned. I'll willingly admit that this is me being a stickler for things not lining up in lore and gameplay, which I believe should be in harmony and agreement rather than at one another's throat, but it's something to consider. On the flip side it doesn't seem to make much sense for a revenant to suddenly abandon his tried and true whack paddle in favor of magical skills he's very likely entirely unfamiliar with, and may well require a degree of patience and control he may struggle to produce. This is why I think what weapons a class can use could be determined by their position on the triangle, as that gives a solid representation on what that class is likely to focus on/be strongest in. For example, great weapons could occupy the material corner of the triangle, usable only by those strongly dedicated to its focus, while grimoires/tomes/staves/mage stuff would occupy the magical corner, similarly only being usable by those dedicated to its respective focus. Then other weapons could fall on the line in-between, like shortswords. It is plausible that a lich may keep something more manageable and likely easier to use like a shortsword for defense should enemies get too close, and this would likely serve as a surprise to anyone who expected that they could easily bonk the Lich because their bicep is as big around as his waist. A revenant, seeming to pretty consistently be accomplished warriors and others of martial prowess, would likely also be proficient with shortswords given their mastery of the battlefield, though they may not necessarily be able to capitalize with them as much as they could a heftier weapon. Vampires, of course, being the biggest all-rounders, would likely be able to use anything and everything, though perhaps not to the same level as a class that is specialized in the use of a particular weapon. Jack of all trades but a master of none as the saying goes.

Or there could be the, likely simpler, system of having some weapon types that are in a "common" pool and can be used by most any class (possible exceptions being ghouls and banshees who seem to have their weapons largely built in from my understanding), and others that are locked to particular classes. Either way, I think a level of class locking is a good idea in both sticking to the lore and making the classes feel varied and unique as opposed to feeling like skins and starter loadouts. If nothing else, I would like to see a degree of work being forced to be put in to make classes able to make use of something they wouldn't typically be able to, like the previously mentioned idea of getting a spell to empower your lich's physical abilities or a quest to hone your revenant's mind and focus his rage so he could make proper use of magic. Otherwise all of the classes may well meld together, on top of regularly seeing nonsensical things like maul-wielding liches and bookworm revenants.
 

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I think class locking weapons makes a lot of sense, but only doing so partially and perhaps in respect to a class' position on the triangle. Like someone earlier said, it doesn't make much sense for a lich, who has likely spent the entirety of his life and unlife honing and advancing his spellcraft, to suddenly turn away from that skillset and decide that a great weapon is the optimal engine of war so far as he is concerned. I'll willingly admit that this is me being a stickler for things not lining up in lore and gameplay, which I believe should be in harmony and agreement rather than at one another's throat, but it's something to consider. On the flip side it doesn't seem to make much sense for a revenant to suddenly abandon his tried and true whack paddle in favor of magical skills he's very likely entirely unfamiliar with, and may well require a degree of patience and control he may struggle to produce. This is why I think what weapons a class can use could be determined by their position on the triangle, as that gives a solid representation on what that class is likely to focus on/be strongest in. For example, great weapons could occupy the material corner of the triangle, usable only by those strongly dedicated to its focus, while grimoires/tomes/staves/mage stuff would occupy the magical corner, similarly only being usable by those dedicated to its respective focus. Then other weapons could fall on the line in-between, like shortswords. It is plausible that a lich may keep something more manageable and likely easier to use like a shortsword for defense should enemies get too close, and this would likely serve as a surprise to anyone who expected that they could easily bonk the Lich because their bicep is as big around as his waist. A revenant, seeming to pretty consistently be accomplished warriors and others of martial prowess, would likely also be proficient with shortswords given their mastery of the battlefield, though they may not necessarily be able to capitalize with them as much as they could a heftier weapon. Vampires, of course, being the biggest all-rounders, would likely be able to use anything and everything, though perhaps not to the same level as a class that is specialized in the use of a particular weapon. Jack of all trades but a master of none as the saying goes.

Or there could be the, likely simpler, system of having some weapon types that are in a "common" pool and can be used by most any class (possible exceptions being ghouls and banshees who seem to have their weapons largely built in from my understanding), and others that are locked to particular classes. Either way, I think a level of class locking is a good idea in both sticking to the lore and making the classes feel varied and unique as opposed to feeling like skins and starter loadouts. If nothing else, I would like to see a degree of work being forced to be put in to make classes able to make use of something they wouldn't typically be able to, like the previously mentioned idea of getting a spell to empower your lich's physical abilities or a quest to hone your revenant's mind and focus his rage so he could make proper use of magic. Otherwise all of the classes may well meld together, on top of regularly seeing nonsensical things like maul-wielding liches and bookworm revenants.
Remember, Jack of all trades, Master of none, though oftentimes better than master of one.... ;)
 

Szarekh the Silent King

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Remember, Jack of all trades, Master of none, though oftentimes better than master of one.... ;)
I can easily see that being the case with the Vampire. He just seems to have so much going for him, not to mention he's moderate in everything, which one would assume to add up to about six let's say "starting attribute points", whereas most other classes have five as they're either strong (3) in one thing and weak (1) in the other two, or moderate (2) in two and weak in the other. I'm probably just reading too much into that one, though.
 

Livin

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Makes me wonder what you'd deny the vampire if they were to class lock certain weapons to certain classes. If the vampire has access to everything and is a

Remember, Jack of all trades, Master of none, though oftentimes better than master of one.... ;)
then thats a bit of problem because why would anyone bother with any other class if you could do it all by just being a blood sucker.
 
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Roband

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Makes me wonder what you'd deny the vampire if they were to class lock certain weapons to certain classes. If the vampire has access to everything and is a


then thats a bit of problem because why would anyone bother with any other class if you could do it all by just being a blood sucker.

It was mentioned the idea of having a pool of weapons that every class can potentially wield (most likey medium one hand weapons like swords, maces and the likes) with likely varying degrees of effectivness between the races, i would give them to vampires wich would also fit them being a "generalist" class.

If a Liche can get the most out of a scepter or a staff, a revenant from two handed weapons and so on, vampires could be specialists in the use of those (in the sense that while all the other classes can wield them, they can't do it with the same proficency of vampires).

Wighs could be possibly able to wield anything depending on how they are build.

maybe phisical chains/scythes for wraiths

Ghouls, and Banshee i'm not sure, it's weird to imagine them wielding any weapon to begin with from how their hands looks, expecially the gohul that seems to always be in a quadruped stance.
 

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Makes me wonder what you'd deny the vampire if they were to class lock certain weapons to certain classes. If the vampire has access to everything and is a


then thats a bit of problem because why would anyone bother with any other class if you could do it all by just being a blood sucker.
it's been stated a few times that Vampires while having the middle ground will not be just another "jack of all trades" type character.

as far as access to weapons and what not, sure they will most likely have the most access to any weapon type, based on their ability to adapt to a certain playstyle but..
a physical vampire is going to play completely different than a revenant.
a essential vampire is going to play completely different than a wight.
a magical vampire is going to play completely different than a liche.

so why would I chose a vampire over a liche or liche over vampire? because i like the way it plays more than the other.
 
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