CyanStargazer

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So I remembered earlier today that Denis, Jack, and others teased that letting your characters True Name leak out might be devastating. I thought that since it seems like we haven't had any sort of discussion about it we might as well start. Given that Names, especially True Names seemingly have power over individuals, it could be something along the lines of a debuff when you fight a person who knows your True Name. But on the other possible hand it could also be a benefit, such as when you fight with someone who knows your true name it could buff you. My idea is that True Names can influence the person it belongs to, either "Shackling them" or "Unleashing them" depending on the manner it's used.
Edit: To go onto my idea of the "Shackling" is that an earlier entry of the Liche says that they seek the "Truth" which could be the True Names of the Elder Gods to theoretically "Shackle" an elder got to their will. If this is at all possible or not, we might never know, but it could be a good point of departure.
 
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Rx_Bishop_MD

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I have thought a little about this myself. Given the setting of the game that has been presented to tie the "True Name" to just a pvp element may be a little narrow imho. So what you are saying seems to make more sense. I think we have said it before...something like gaining a buff from either playing with them...or even something more passive like a small amount of exp...or gold...or even lore.

I see a game with potential to have endless things to find. What does that mean. Will others find things I may never..or vice versa. Maybe they will discover secrets quicker...so maybe being tied together I learn some of those secrets too. That would be a positive. To think of what may be negative is much scarier. PvP makes sense...but then dont fight them. So i dont know. This type of mechanic sounds like it could be a lot of fun.
 
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CyanStargazer

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I have thought a little about this myself. Given the setting of the game that has been presented to tie the "True Name" to just a pvp element may be a little narrow imho. So what you are saying seems to make more sense. I think we have said it before...something like gaining a buff from either playing with them...or even something more passive like a small amount of exp...or gold...or even lore.

I see a game with potential to have endless things to find. What does that mean. Will others find things I may never..or vice versa. Maybe they will discover secrets quicker...so maybe being tied together I learn some of those secrets too. That would be a positive. To think of what may be negative is much scarier. PvP makes sense...but then dont fight them. So i dont know. This type of mechanic sounds like it could be a lot of fun.
Yeah I was thinking about outside a PvP environment. It could be something as simple as when you deal with them (In like a trade or something similar) if a similar system is used for trading in DHS as Warframe (Specifically the Clan Tax system which I don't know why it's there) it could be something like a minor inconvenience where you pay them a bit more gold or something. Another debuff is that they could freely use your stuff, maybe taking or removing items of a specific low rarity value and in very small amounts as a way of "exerting power over you" and that effect lasts for a very limited amount of time. Sort of a one and done with a limited amount of time to use it. Like maybe 5-10 IRL days at most. Then they might lose the option to use it against you forever outside of PvP because "You've become resistant to their influence." or similar.
 

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Something that I just thought of...and this is another benefit...what if knowing a real name would allow you to summon a spirit of them in combat for you. Given a limited amount of time...and maybe only once a day or something...but ultimately as long as you have their name you could always do it. That seems like a balance nightmare but would be really cool. Maybe a negative would be if they were online it would cause a debuff on them for the amount of time the summon is there...and could be stacked if multiple people are essentially draining them of power across the land.

All of this could be game breaking if someones name got out in a forum or something. I would hate to see something like that where people may try to abuse that though.
 

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I think a cool mechanic would be the ability to impose a "geas" on a player, like a quest that they have to do or suffer some penalty, that provides you with some bonus or advancement to your character's goals. Probably have the quest provide pretty decent rewards for the person undertaking it, too, so that it's not a completely awful thing to have imposed on you.

Other forms of mythological geas, like a prohibition against certain actions (Such as opposing your/your faction in pvp or however the in-game politics might work) could also work, but would have to be balanced carefully to not be annoying.

It would also be a pretty good idea to have there be *benefits* for letting some characters know your True Name, like they can give you strong buffs and the like, to make giving it out a tempting option.
 

CyanStargazer

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Yeah, the balancing issues could be very tough. If one person ends up putting their characters "True Name" out there, and somewhere down the line they have a fall out with the person they trusted their true name too, it could easily get into the wrong hands and neuter the character. So maybe there is a hard limit on how big the debuff could get. Maybe a debuff of 25% of their stats at max. There could also be a limit on how many people can use that persons true name at a time as well and have it on a long cool down to avoid basically an entire guild making one players life hell for weeks on end by giving them almost a full 25% debuff or similar. I say an entire guild because looking at how bad some guild fallouts can be, it's best to take it into account now than when a player is rendered useless by people abusing it in the future.
 

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I think a cool mechanic would be the ability to impose a "geas" on a player, like a quest that they have to do or suffer some penalty, that provides you with some bonus or advancement to your character's goals. Probably have the quest provide pretty decent rewards for the person undertaking it, too, so that it's not a completely awful thing to have imposed on you.
Ohhh I really like that idea. That would be really cool. Could you imagine logging in though to see 20 new quests you would have to do.
 

Quamobrem

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Definitely something that would require some pretty heavy balance, yeah.

At least one important facet would be, in my mind having either A: A way to intentionally change your true name, via a quest or other non-trivial mechanic or B: Truenames changing automatically if overused.
 

DukeVaeVictis

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When they mentioned True Names I was thinking about the what for benefits and penalities it would make for the people invovled, if there is no benefits in knowing someone's name then why would you share it? It should be a risk or reward invovled, but in what way? Increase in stats when playing in the same group, a decrease in stats when using a True Name? Making the game more challening but still playable? Just to chime in with Dark Souls as example, Dark Souls is not hard or challening it just requires extra bit of attention from people playing it.

My hopes for PvP in Deadhaus is less about gangs of players running and more about clans and houses seeking to establish dominance in the undead political spectrum going on in the world - Humans players hunting undead? Yay too!

"Rose Marry! I command thee to speak of your most innerest fears!"

"SPIDERS! DAMN YOU!"

I mean in a way yeah I can imagine it being used to "share" lore/secrets. xD
 
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Varik Keldun

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Denis has stated that True Names are a very powerful thing... maybe invoking a true name could lead to a permadeath type situation if used by the wrong person... there was also talk of the possibility of infusing a character into weapons / armor to make them stronger... so there is the possibility of having to know the true name to A) Make the item. B) Wield the items. C) Use the item to its' full potential.
 

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When encountering true names in fiction they are usually used to either summon or control somebody. Generally the control is a consequence of said summoning or of dominating someone with overwhelming power or will but for the latter there must be a severe difference in power between the controller and the controlee.

Generally speaking the power to summon something is not very useful unless you can control it so in most fiction the idea of true names is paired with the idea of the impenetrable magic circle. Once summoned into the circle generally the summoned entity is unfriendly due to being dragged god-knows-where by some random guy the summoned has never met before. If the circle is improperly set or simply not powerful enough the entity would escape and would likely kill the summoner. Generally though the summoner would bargain with the summoned for some sort of bargain, the simplest one being the entity being released with some task to do. Unless the task is something the entity would do anyway though such a bargain is unlikely to occur because in most cases those circles of power cannot be maintained indefinitely especially if the entity inside fights to break free. Unless the summoner wants to die he would rather banish the summoned creature before the circle collapses and at this point the entity is released anyway. Generally a bad idea as the summoner would not have achieved his goals and would have probably made an enemy, albeit one that does not know the summoner's identity in most cases. Generally it is a bad idea to attack the entity inside the circle as it would be released if the circle is crossed in any manner and usually the entity is able to depart immediately when the circle is broken so the summoning is usually not a good way to ambush it.

This whole process could actually be translated into game mechanics and if a player character is summoned into a circle he could be prevented from participating in an important battle. Of course the summoner would have to be of sufficient power or the summoned would be able to break out so it would be a bad idea for noob characters to summon veteran ones. Probably only one summon should be available at a time with some time after the summoning when the character would be immune to it unless he wants to be summoned otherwise this could end up in a complete clusterfuck. The positive side of a summoning system like this would be that a character can be summoned in a friendly manner.
 
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Livin

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I'd use it as a form of currency, trading it for something rare and extremely desired, the cost being a quest they must fulfill on behalf of the one you gave it to in the exchange. Perhaps it is a one time thing, perhaps its multiple, or maybe there are some requiring periodic quests like once a month and even one failure to complete will result in forfeiture of whatever was given.
 

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I can't imagine that True Names will be an issue amongst players. The abuse would be unreal.

It seems to me that it's far more likely to be a story implement in the game's campaign -- whether you tell NPC allies, whether NPC enemies discover your true name (or you discover theirs) may be a plot point.
 
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Elveone

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I can't imagine that True Names will be an issue amongst players. The abuse would be unreal.

It seems to me that it's far more likely to be a story implement in the game's campaign -- whether you tell NPC allies, whether NPC enemies discover your true name (or you discover theirs) may be a plot point.
Some of the inspiration about the world-changing of DHS is EVE online where backstabbing resulting in years of progress being wiped is kind of par for the course so make of that what you will.
 
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Galen

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Some of the inspiration about the world-changing of DHS is EVE online where backstabbing resulting in years of progress being wiped is kind of par for the course so make of that what you will.
That might be true, but imo that's playing with fire. You'd need a passionately dedicated fanbase to ensure people didn't quit enmasse when something as huge as an entire guild's vault being raided happens -- or something more permanent happens, such as your true name is made publicly known.
 
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Yeah, the balancing issues could be very tough. If one person ends up putting their characters "True Name" out there, and somewhere down the line they have a fall out with the person they trusted their true name too, it could easily get into the wrong hands and neuter the character. So maybe there is a hard limit on how big the debuff could get. Maybe a debuff of 25% of their stats at max. There could also be a limit on how many people can use that persons true name at a time as well and have it on a long cool down to avoid basically an entire guild making one players life hell for weeks on end by giving them almost a full 25% debuff or similar. I say an entire guild because looking at how bad some guild fallouts can be, it's best to take it into account now than when a player is rendered useless by people abusing it in the future.

This ^ Feels like a good enough reason to not have such a " True Name Punishing System" In place.
 

klokwerkaos

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I can't imagine that True Names will be an issue amongst players. The abuse would be unreal.

It seems to me that it's far more likely to be a story implement in the game's campaign -- whether you tell NPC allies, whether NPC enemies discover your true name (or you discover theirs) may be a plot point.
I tend to agree with this approach, if it has a player impact that sounds like a terrible plan.

I've got some ideas here and I hope the devs see it and consider it at least.

While nobody can stop all trolling/botting, the idea is to take away tools that give them easier access, not give them more tools.

I'd imagine there needs to be a trade off.


I like the idea presented that it presents multiple quests in exchange for power (possibly a tarot card or magic weapon or something) in a PVE sense and there's maybe a lingering issue where that power can't be used against the quest giver as they can neuter it by invoking the true name. I think this could have very interesting ramifications in long term play...

On one hand players want to chase power and by changing who gives a power type quest in each age or bracket would change, so the idea is you would want to be doing all these quests but if you do so and earn a reputation as someone with no loyalty it ends up harming you in lots of situations, such as say, if you went against X lord in the last time bracket they might not give you a quest in the next one, or might require that you complete an extra quest chain to prove your worth to them (because if we're real we understand the undead have no true loyalties other than to themselves).

This creates a situation where sure you might get more powerful gear/tarot this way, but in certain situations it will be of NO use and that by chasing power you are essentially forcing yourself to take on more content... which if we're honest, is actually a good thing for the hardcore players that want more content and are most likely to be the players that chase all power.

In this way a faction devotion system might be derived as well so that perhaps these power ups work better or worse depending on the loyalty you have with a faction (as well as the relative support/power of the house), meaning that you still need to consider what you need/want to be most powerful for your build, and that there are limitations on how far you can go in any direction because advancing too much with one faction could lead you out of favor with an opposing faction, thereby limiting the gifts you can utilize effectively, or creating a situation where a player must do more maintenance to keep all the factions satisfied (which is kind of a reward in the sense that it's more content) but still limiting the power diversity vs power potency... if you want more potency you have to devote to a single faction, if you want good potency in a couple quest givers you'd need to keep them both happy, but would sacrifice some power potency in each... if you want more, you'd sacrifice more potency still, but have much more diversity...

This would also require multiple quest givers and factions, probably at least 9, because of the diversity of classes and playstyles.

And then here's the gimmick that makes this all worthwhile and helps keep the game fresh:

Just because two factions were allied last age, doesn't mean they will be next age, they likely will betray each other at some point and there's no knowing how the story will unfold in the next age, so player choice at the beginning of each new age causes them to have to rechoose their loyalties to which houses they support and while their old gear doesn't become useless, it changes in potency. Players that were allied with eachother last seasons might not be the next... it keeps the game fresh and diverging.

This also rewards longer term players as some houses will be of greater and less benefit depending on alliances that change age to age and the more gear/tarot they have built up from these allows them faster progression in the new ages and it also introduces meaningful choices to the players since we know that player participation has an impact on the story... so supporting so and so will lead to different consequences... and while if everyone (players) support one faction and make things too imbalanced where they gain a lot of influence, perhaps they dominate for the end of the age, but at the end of the age switch the other houses come together to defeat them... this then sets those houses up as likely allies (probably a few different groups of allies) in the next age while the one everyone supported is allied to nobody, causing everyone to rethink their strategies in the next age and the gear that was ultra powered in the last age to be less potent as the house has fallen in prominence (or possibly been destroyed and replaced with a new one).

Ultimately this leads to a creative way to have players consider who they are going to support and not... and further, should the quest giver/house leader die off, while that item is no longer useless against them and they no longer existing faction, it is no longer as potent as it once was while they held power and is still decent gear, but not as significantly potent.

Players now have to balance the economies of other players, other interactions between players (since guild fallouts can change this) and their play styles in accordance with who they support, as well as age changes, meaning that while their participation is small, it does matter and make a difference and even being in an ultra powerful group of elite players that can swing things, doesn't make for a permanent buff as the other houses will band together to defeat them...

To me this is the dream for player interactivity and a non persistant world. Player choice matters and has an effect on long term play, there is more content for those that want more power, and loyalty or lack thereof has consequences. For example, say you are always loyal to a given quest giver, not only do you help protect their continued legacy and increase in power, but you also gain a minor buff each age you're allied with them because you have proven to be a loyal house member over time.

All in all I think the potency still needs to be reigned in since you can't these bonuses getting too imbalanced, but as long as they are close enough so that there's not more than maybe a -5% to +5% scale that makes a difference with a 10% spread of power that is likely to work differently. All of this is possible with code tags for the item and also tags for the factions.

I think the key to all of this though is that there has to be an "event quest" available at the start of each age, like a parlay between houses where the heads of hosues all come together on neutral territory for a feast or something and each house vies for the player's loyalty in the coming age, allowing that all factions are represented. You could also have different dialogs here depending on if someone supported or opposed the house in the last age, making the experience somewhat unique to each player. They wouldn't need to change a lot, maybe 4 different ones: they were supported last time, they were opposed last age, they were neutral last age, or they were betrayed by the player last age. This allows them to approach the player differently based on those circumstances. If you want to get crazy with this you could even add in "complicated history" after several ages where the player has had shifting priorities changing constantly who they support and betray, this allows those houses to view them more as "mercenary types". The mercenary types of course, don't get the bonuses of loyalty, but are always able to chase the biggest power available.

A key component here is that this is specific to each character on the account (so if you want a fresh start you can always roll a new toon) and that bonuses are NOT account wide, but are specific to the character. However... to make this better supported for players who like having lots of alts, if they've already done the quests on another character, they can have that character speak on their current character's behalf to help speed along the questline progress and make them gain loyalty quicker with a specific faction (assuming they are playing with the same factions, which they may not be).

As a player guild thing I can also imagine a dillution of this system in that guild leaders could create "tasks" which are bulletin board style "donate X thing" and be given some kind of reward from the system (maybe a cosmetic token or something) and then players that fulfill that request get the token.

This is also viable for if someone wants a solo guild, because then they can set their own goals to get those things but of course, don't benefit from the advantages of massive group contributions, but it gives them the opportunity to play solo and still get the rewards.
 
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Elveone

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That's just a concept for a faction system, it doesn't have anything to do with the concept of true names.