Player-Created Lore

[Quamobrem]

So there's this idea that we'll be able to establish lineages and otherwise create stuff that adds to the setting via the Ages system. How much control will players really have over this? For example, I want to introduce some LGBT representation with my Alpha and Beta characters for future players. If I start a vampire lineage with a lesbian vampire character, will her sexuality be recognized in the canon setting? Or if me and some friends wanted to form an all-female order of vampire knights sworn to protect the interests of the Red Lady out of romantic, unrequited love for her, could we do so, and have our exploits become part of the setting? "The enemies of Our Lady will die in unremitting agony, and their blood will water the flowers of her affection for us" kind of thing, so as to not forget that this is a dark and violent setting. : p

 

[Denis Dyack]

Thank you for the question. The answer is yes; We see no reason why we would not allow this.

 

[klokwerkaos]

Glad to know we're in a space that allows representation for everyone Not LGBTQ myself, but I firmly support all human (and undead!) rights.

That said, I'm curious how gender/sex is even handled in Lore. I think that's something worthy of discussion in the sense that undead generally don't reproduce sexually, so the notion of genitals and gender identity seem like they are pretty much completely cosmetic in a society that (assumedly) doesn't sexually reproduce, meaning, if everyone is asexually able to reproduce, or not reproduce at all (say like a lich) then it seems like the whole concept of gender/sex is ultimately pointless in their society (unless this is included in the lore somewhere).

IE, a vampire, lich, banshee, etc. with X bio parts (male, female or hemaphroditic) is just as likely to be a greater or lesser threat (IE, raw power tends to be the mitigating factor, thus establishing the individual being far more important rather than gender stereotype) and with that out of the equation it seems more like gender is irrelevant except in the case for those that wish to cling to notions of their former humanity. This also gets completely turned on it's head when you consider that some of these beings may be able to shape shift in humanoid appearance, and thus potentially swap gender representation at will.

From a cosmetic sales perspective that's also a huge boon to Apocalypse, being that you can sell alt models as well as skins for said models, thereby allowing people to shift gender identity without needing to swap characters/accounts, which is sure to increase potential sales. From the player perspective this also opens up lots of roleplay opportunities, not just for transgender players, but also for those that might seek to use these concepts as a form of subterfuge (IE, X NPC is more fond of Y presentation, swap into a form that is best suited to negotiate with them).

Exactly how vampires and the other archetypes reproduce I'm sure is something that likely has to come up in the lore at some point (ie how a vampire is turned). I think the only version we know of that is somewhat concrete is the liches in the sense that they don't reproduce at all but are rather, generally speaking, self created.

I could see an argument for vampires possibly favoring feminine things, given that their progenitor, the red lady, is at least feminine in representation, but I feel like when you live eternally these things cease to be relevant at all at a certain point other than being potentially poetically symbolic.

 

[Golden Xan]

I believe no current undead class "reproduces" in the traditional sense. More undead are turned undead through their own special means, but reproduction is something solely reserved for the living. All undead are created or "create" themselves. Of the classes we currently know of, the Vampire is the only one in which the transformation is not yet explained. I believe the other unrevealed classes will go along the same lines.

Our first actual Vampire, Lord Zorin, was surely not close to human. One of the appeals in the game is that we play monsters that people should fear, with motivations of their own not at all like that of humans. That means sex appeal or desire would humanize them, make them more relatable, and this might go against that purpose. I imagine a Vampire could use sex appeal, but only as a predatory tool. It feeds off of humans, so it could and would use attraction to lure them.

If we, as players, were to see attractiveness in the undead, that means they must not look dead enough, because death is pretty much the opposite of new life (and anything related to reproduction). Seeing what they look like should repel us. Meeting Lord Zorin should bring forth a "fight or flight" response to any human.
And disguising his ugliness takes a powerful magick indeed.

In any case, I have no idea what is going to be the freedom given to players in terms of creating their own narratives and stories in the game, but this is some high level of openness. I'm not sure how this complexity would be achieved.

 

[klokwerkaos]

@Golden Xan

I tend to agree, but you have to consider a lot of people like sexy vampires, and even if that isn't the push from the art direction, it still makes sense from a lore perspective to want to be able to manipulate mortals. It can serve as an alternate tool set to the monstrous hunter as you eluded to.

I believe the thing I recall from one of the videos was "let other people make vampires into sex symbols, these are monsters" which is a great thought, but I think it might be a bit over simplistic if that's the ONLY path for a vampire. Also consider that many people still thought Kain was a sort of sex symbol even in later games when he became more monstrous, possibly in part because of this fact.

 

[CyanStargazer]

@Golden Xan

I tend to agree, but you have to consider a lot of people like sexy vampires, and even if that isn't the push from the art direction, it still makes sense from a lore perspective to want to be able to manipulate mortals. It can serve as an alternate tool set to the monstrous hunter as you eluded to.

I believe the thing I recall from one of the videos was "let other people make vampires into sex symbols, these are monsters" which is a great thought, but I think it might be a bit over simplistic if that's the ONLY path for a vampire. Also consider that many people still thought Kain was a sort of sex symbol even in later games when he became more monstrous, possibly in part because of this fact.

It's also important to remember the old internet rule of rule 34. No matter what, someone will get off to it. Trying to make it impossible is in itself impossible.

 

[DukeVaeVictis]

Sexiness is what your brain tells you what sexy is, In a way I think that illusionary horror is absolute terrifying because you'll never see or know what horror really hides beneath the sweetness of lies of your own brain.

I am all for making my vampire female sexy, so long I can play her as the apathetic monster she is. We as a species lower our guard when we see something we like, whatever it is a flower which could potentially bite our face off or a soild marble of a statue which could crush our heads.

 

[Quamobrem]

Y'all should note that I never did say "sexy". I mean, yes, I *do* think playing sexy vampires should be a thing, and would probably play at least one of my characters as one, but a character can be gay without being conventionally attractive. I ain't trying to put porn in the game, I'm trying to get the existence of people like me acknowledged.

Also, at least part of this question is less about the gay stuff specifically than just how much we can influence the lore in general, what information about our characters actually gets added into the canon setting, and how that's accomplished. Like will we be able to read books about our characters? Lore blurbs on items? If our character does something big and important will we be talking to the devs about how we want that information reflected going forward, or will it be more of an automatic process? Those are pretty difficult questions that are probably impossible to answer at this point, but I hope some thought is already being given to them.

 

[klokwerkaos]

Y'all should note that I never did say "sexy". I mean, yes, I *do* think playing sexy vampires should be a thing, and would probably play at least one of my characters as one, but a character can be gay without being conventionally attractive. I ain't trying to put porn in the game, I'm trying to get the existence of people like me acknowledged.

I think that it's less about what people find attractive, because I think everyone is on the same page that such is entirely subjective, and just that the conversation drifted in that direction based on how I followed the thing.

Also, at least part of this question is less about the gay stuff specifically than just how much we can influence the lore in general, what information about our characters actually gets added into the canon setting, and how that's accomplished. Like will we be able to read books about our characters? Lore blurbs on items? If our character does something big and important will we be talking to the devs about how we want that information reflected going forward, or will it be more of an automatic process? Those are pretty difficult questions that are probably impossible to answer at this point, but I hope some thought is already being given to them.

I feel like that's probably something we won't understand fully for a long time. Obviously as I understand it they want players to be able to influence the lore with their actions, but precisely how much that gets implemented is likely more on a wider scale than a smaller one, and I say that just because lets say every single player among tens of thousands to millions subits something to add about their favorite character... just reading and vetting that material is a logistical nightmare and likely total physical impossibility.

I do think they might have ways to slim that process though, perhaps by having various writing contests and having people upvote stuff and then selection maybe 10 from the top 50 to implement in such a fashion as more permanent fixtures to the game, and this is of course, assuming that nothing in it conflicts with current lore the writer might not know, including things that aren't released in game to the general public. But even that is a pretty big thing and a full project for a community director that is likely to eat up a week.

 

[DukeVaeVictis]

Just a thought crossed my mind, how does a vampire process love? Love is an impulse from our brain when we see something we like/hear something we love or feel a connection with a person? When I think about how my character feels love towards a human or a vampire, it wouldn't be love as what we human see love. My vampire connection to any human who she/he wants to "sire" would be like in the interest of continue the bloodline by the person's talents and potential ability to solve issues.

My hope is that all our vampires can be vaild by our own creations, maybe some vampires are more human and some other less human and more alien.

 

[klokwerkaos]

Just a thought crossed my mind, how does a vampire process love? Love is an impulse from our brain when we see something we like/hear something we love or feel a connection with a person? When I think about how my character feels love towards a human or a vampire, it wouldn't be love as what we human see love. My vampire connection to any human who she/he wants to "sire" would be like in the interest of continue the bloodline by the person's talents and potential ability to solve issues.

My hope is that all our vampires can be vaild by our own creations, maybe some vampires are more human and some other less human and more alien.

Just as there are diverse types of humans there are likely diverse types of undead and we can count on that seeing as how myths and lore surrounding them can show the same types of creatures in very different lights. (compare Underworld vs Twighlight both of which came out within 10 years of eachother).

The notion of some vampires cling to their mortal lives is also something that has been explored as well in several examples I can pseudo remember.

Most of the themes we're seeing in Deadhaus do point to a more relentless and monstrous sort of vampire.

Vampires that claim to feel love would likely be seen socially as deviants or undesirables in a fashion in deadhaus society, not because of their notions of preference (which is likely irrelevant to most undead), but because of their focus, being that their motivation isn't revolving around feeding but rather disgusting human emotions... ewww... I'm sure it's just a phase, hopefully they'll grow out of it soon...

But as we know with conversion therapy and hoping your teen kid in the 80's stops listening to heavy metal, it's not a phase, some people are just different than whatever artificial constraints society might place on them, likely is the case with undead.

I'm also coming at this from a more youthful perspective of vampires, say, less than 500 years old that likely still participate in some level of society. I imagine, much like many older folks in human society, the older undead don't give 2 shytes what the younger crowd is doing and are more concerned with trying to remain engaged and not bored or depressed.

 

[Calypso]

Interesting stuff everyone

Visually I think our Vampires will evolve if my memory isn't failing me again lol. The vampire we see in Memento Mori might perhaps be our starting look or A starting look for new vampires and as we level up or as the AGES pass we cosmetically become more monstrous OR we can naturally transform to a more human like look.

Lore wise there will be Community content creation tools down the road and everyone can go nuts with whatever. Big picture wise I'm imagining small blurbs like the post credit scene in dragon age will be what carries over for us.

The only way i can realistically from a programming perspective think this through is you have a phrase or story generator with X character some details pulled from your character bio doing X thing or Y thing because B or A happened. Unless its something you creating Content wise thats free game because its what you personally wrote.

 

[DukeVaeVictis]

Yes! I would love if our looks changes to more monsterous and "alien" or more human depending on our actions and what we do in the game.

 

[klokwerkaos]

Yes! I would love if our looks changes to more monsterous and "alien" or more human depending on our actions and what we do in the game.

I think the best way to handle that would be through managing your own skins.

The reason I say that is because it's also just as viable to want a rotten to the core vampire that is supernaturally maliciously evil, but looks very friendly/sexy, etc.

The idea with cosmetics I tend to get behind is that cosmetics need to be 100% cosmetic and completely divorced from all mechanics. This allows players the freedom to adjust their looks on the fly for any or no reason to fulfill their fantasty storyline as needed.

This also still allows you can change your character to the degree you feel their choices reflect, it's just that it's on you to manage that, but that also allows everyone the freedom to tell their own story with their own cosmetics.

 

[Quamobrem]

Just a thought crossed my mind, how does a vampire process love? Love is an impulse from our brain when we see something we like/hear something we love or feel a connection with a person? When I think about how my character feels love towards a human or a vampire, it wouldn't be love as what we human see love. My vampire connection to any human who she/he wants to "sire" would be like in the interest of continue the bloodline by the person's talents and potential ability to solve issues.

My hope is that all our vampires can be valid by our own creations, maybe some vampires are more human and some other less human and more alien.

I am totally 100% coming from a place of "Vampiric love is similar to human love in some ways, but twisted and alien due to their monstrous perspective" In considering these ideas and the creating the short fiction that I'll likely be posting soon on this topic. : >

 

[DukeVaeVictis]

I am totally 100% coming from a place of "Vampiric love is similar to human love in some ways, but twisted and alien due to their monstrous perspective" In considering these ideas and the creating the short fiction that I'll likely be posting soon on this topic. : >

Yeah, something I dislike with VTM was honestly the clans, it all depended on which GM you had for sure, I always found the Venture character that cleaned up issues and made them disappear then the character who sat on a chair and called the shots. The clans was cool, I guess but they could crumb the creativity.

 

[klokwerkaos]

Yeah, something I dislike with VTM was honestly the clans, it all depended on which GM you had for sure, I always found the Venture character that cleaned up issues and made them disappear then the character who sat on a chair and called the shots. The clans was cool, I guess but they could crumb the creativity.

I always found the clans to be enjoyable for the most part, but totally YMMV, as you said the GM would be the make or break point for that.

 

[DukeVaeVictis]

I always found the clans to be enjoyable for the most part, but totally YMMV, as you said the GM would be the make or break point for that.

My favs are Toreador, Gangrel and Brujah, If I had a GM who was into stereotypes I had them all set for it.