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Mallius Odium
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I'm not sure if I already discussed this idea within the DHS community before, but I'll outline it here just in case I didn't.
I'll use magic for this example, but the principle can apply to other combat skills as well (or even healing).

Traditionally in games with RPG elements, you may start with just basic attacks or spells, and then you increase in power by learning newer, more potent magic skills which both cost more mana, but also have improved effects. Idea I had a long time ago would both enhance and sort of potentially replace that system with the improvement effect which, put simply, is that the more you use something, the more you master it, and the more power you can put into/get out of it without necessarily increasing the cost of use.

Examples:

lvl 1 Firebolt (starting magic skill)
10-18 fire damage
very fast cast time
fast projectile
very small area of effect
8 mana cost
very small chance to set enemy ablaze

lvl 1 Fireball (unlocked at level 8 caster level)
30-50 fire damage
medium cast time
somewhat fast projectile
medium area of effect
22 mana cost
high chance to set enemies ablaze

--------------------

lvl 1 Master Firebolt (used until maxed out at 10th level, and then pushed beyond into Mastery levels)
100-180 fire damage
instant cast time (cast by will instead of ritual)
very fast projectile
small area of effect
5 mana cost (familiarity from Mastery actually drives the cost of mana down rather than up)
very high chance to set enemies ablaze
extra Mastery effect allows projectiles to pierce through multiple enemies

lvl 7 Fireball (used the same amount as it takes to get to the first level of Mastered Firebolt, but more complex means more use/exp required to level up)
290-550 fire damage
medium cast time
somewhat fast projectile
somewhat large area of effect
230 mana cost (an un-Mastered spell costs more mana to get more power out of, Mastery would start driving the mana cost back down again)
high chance to set enemies ablaze
-no extra effect because not yet Mastered

Of course any higher tier spells would either have a much higher threshold to push the skill into the realm of Mastery, or else it would be so complex that it may be nigh impossible to Master--it might require additional challenges/event completions to unlock Mastery levels, perhaps.
But such a system would allow someone who favored using lower tier spells over higher tier counterparts to still have them as a viable option even into high level/end game content without being "forced" to change their preferred play style too much.

So you could potentially go into battle with a set of low tier spells that you've just poured all of your effort into mastering and be just as effective (or possibly even more effective) than an otherwise equal leveled ally of the same class who's kitted out with the most recently unlocked skill sets for that level.

Think of it as being the difference between a warrior who spent 5 years only practicing a simple overhead downward sword strike going up against someone who spent 1 year each on learning the 5 newest different sword strike techniques. The latter warrior may be more balanced in combat, but the former warrior would likely be able to split through just about anything you put in front of them with that 1 downward strike.

That's pretty much the gist of it.
 
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I'm not sure if I already discussed this idea within the DHS community before, but I'll outline it here just in case I didn't.
I'll use magic for this example, but the principle can apply to other combat skills as well (or even healing).

Traditionally in games with RPG elements, you may start with just basic attacks or spells, and then you increase in power by learning newer, more potent magic skills which both cost more mana, but also have improved effects. Idea I had a long time ago would both enhance and sort of potentially replace that system with the improvement effect which, put simply, is that the more you use something, the more you master it, and the more power you can put into/get out of it without necessarily increasing the cost of use.

Examples:

lvl 1 Firebolt (starting magic skill)
10-18 fire damage
very fast cast time
fast projectile
very small area of effect
8 mana cost
very small chance to set enemy ablaze

lvl 1 Fireball (unlocked at level 8 caster level)
30-50 fire damage
medium cast time
somewhat fast projectile
medium area of effect
22 mana cost
high chance to set enemies ablaze

--------------------

lvl 1 Master Firebolt (used until maxed out at 10th level, and then pushed beyond into Mastery levels)
100-180 fire damage
instant cast time (cast by will instead of ritual)
very fast projectile
small area of effect
5 mana cost (familiarity from Mastery actually drives the cost of mana down rather than up)
very high chance to set enemies ablaze
extra Mastery effect allows projectiles to pierce through multiple enemies

lvl 7 Fireball (used the same amount as it takes to get to the first level of Mastered Firebolt, but more complex means more use/exp required to level up)
290-550 fire damage
medium cast time
somewhat fast projectile
somewhat large area of effect
230 mana cost (an un-Mastered spell costs more mana to get more power out of, Mastery would start driving the mana cost back down again)
high chance to set enemies ablaze
-no extra effect because not yet Mastered

Of course any higher tier spells would either have a much higher threshold to push the skill into the realm of Mastery, or else it would be so complex that it may be nigh impossible to Master--it might require additional challenges/event completions to unlock Mastery levels, perhaps.
But such a system would allow someone who favored using lower tier spells over higher tier counterparts to still have them as a viable option even into high level/end game content without being "forced" to change their preferred play style too much.

So you could potentially go into battle with a set of low tier spells that you've just poured all of your effort into mastering and be just as effective (or possibly even more effective) than an otherwise equal leveled ally of the same class who's kitted out with the most recently unlocked skill sets for that level.

Think of it as being the difference between a warrior who spent 5 years only practicing a simple overhead downward sword strike going up against someone who spent 1 year each on learning the 5 newest different sword strike techniques. The latter warrior may be more balanced in combat, but the former warrior would likely be able to split through just about anything you put in front of them with that 1 downward strike.

That's pretty much the gist of it.
from what we have been told the way to modify or level our skills / spells is going to be through the tarot card system on the back of which will be something akin to the star chart from skyrim for each card. the different points on the chart will change / enhance how the skill / spell works and interacts.
 
Nothing to suggest the idea is incompatible with the planned system.
 
both those spells Firebolt and Fireball in a standard MMO (take WoW for example) game would start you off with firebolt and later turn into fireball.

In Deadhaus, I could see these as two separate tarot cards - similar in style (fire based ranged magic attack with a chance to ignite)
One is fast and light while the other is a heavy hitter.

though each tarot skill will be customizable within its skill tree to tailor it to your playstyle. So even if there was only one card between the two of them, if you preferred one style over the other I'm sure you could tailor it to fit your needs.
 
I still don't see them as being exclusive concepts. You could have one Tarot card that covers "Fire Magic" and in it could be the many branches and paths of the possibilities of molding and shaping flame to your will using mana (and Words of Power) as the architecture that the flame then adheres to and acts under the guidance of--practicing the techniques would still logically allow one to become better at using a particular flavor of spell over time. You could unlock the card, path into the branches "Firebolt" and "Fireball" both, but end up using Firebolt way more than Fireball, and end up having a Firebolt that you're so accustomed to and well-versed at using, that you can do comparable or even more damage with it than your lesser-used Fireball spell. Still works.

Hell, it could even be a boon to the system. Perhaps there would be further branches beyond simple spell/skill unlocking/selection on these Tarots--perhaps the experience would be part of the requirement to unlock some paths, even--and the paths and branches are used to change the behavior of the spells, where the experience allows you to change the amount of power you can put in (mana cost) and get out (dmg) of the spell, and then beyond that the Mastery levels.

Again, nothing to say it can't be a part of the planned system. Open minds.
 
I still don't see them as being exclusive concepts. You could have one Tarot card that covers "Fire Magic" and in it could be the many branches and paths of the possibilities of molding and shaping flame to your will using mana (and Words of Power) as the architecture that the flame then adheres to and acts under the guidance of--practicing the techniques would still logically allow one to become better at using a particular flavor of spell over time. You could unlock the card, path into the branches "Firebolt" and "Fireball" both, but end up using Firebolt way more than Fireball, and end up having a Firebolt that you're so accustomed to and well-versed at using, that you can do comparable or even more damage with it than your lesser-used Fireball spell. Still works.

Hell, it could even be a boon to the system. Perhaps there would be further branches beyond simple spell/skill unlocking/selection on these Tarots--perhaps the experience would be part of the requirement to unlock some paths, even--and the paths and branches are used to change the behavior of the spells, where the experience allows you to change the amount of power you can put in (mana cost) and get out (dmg) of the spell, and then beyond that the Mastery levels.

Again, nothing to say it can't be a part of the planned system. Open minds.
with the fact that there are going to be 72+ cards per class I don't see why you would want to place all fire magic under one card.

Not to mention Liches are supposed to have the most available active cards - if I am not mistaken, I believe it was 9 -

That being said i'll say again that both the firebolt and the fireball could be placed under the same card and there should be options enough to use it how you want to use it, Though in my opinion I think overall they would make better separate cards with their own trees.

To further broaden the scope on how to adjust and change the skills I would look for Augmenting cards that alone do nothing, but enhance or change how your other cards work. and that could help make something like what Bishop was talking about (multiple spell styles in one cast)

card 1 - Fireball
card 2 - Poison
card 3 - Wall augment (will create a 5 ft wide by 5 ft tall wall for 10 seconds)
card 4 - Combine augment (using this will combine the next two skills into one spell (upgradeable))

press 3,4,2,1 and you get a fire/poison wall
 
with the fact that there are going to be 72+ cards per class I don't see why you would want to place all fire magic under one card.
I don't. I'm just conjecturing possibilities. I wouldn't mind all Fire Spells being under one card, I wouldn't mind each technique having its own card. It all depends on how well it's pulled off, not really how it's set up at the top end.
To further broaden the scope on how to adjust and change the skills I would look for Augmenting cards that alone do nothing, but enhance or change how your other cards work. and that could help make something like what Bishop was talking about (multiple spell styles in one cast)

card 1 - Fireball
card 2 - Poison
card 3 - Wall augment (will create a 5 ft wide by 5 ft tall wall for 10 seconds)
card 4 - Combine augment (using this will combine the next two skills into one spell (upgradeable))

press 3,4,2,1 and you get a fire/poison wall
Nothing wrong with that, either. Bishop should make his own suggestion post about that concept, assuming he hasn't already done so.
 
So ive skimmed this a few times. There is a lot here and you picked the one system we know the least about to speculate on.

Meta most of what you described i believe it how many of us have talked about the combat and stuff in the past. The more you use it the better it gets. However, i feel this gets defeated if one tarot is "fire magic"
We dont know enough to assume the entire card will be accessible we could easily say once you choose a branch the others are not accessible for whatever reason.

I am more apt to believe each individual spell will have its own card..so then situationally incan use firebolt in which ever way i have specd it (even being possible as strong as end game magik) or fireball in the same mannor.

Varik i had a comment on what you saod but i forgot what it was as this was supposed to be a quick reply. Ill come back. Lol
 
I still don't see them as being exclusive concepts. You could have one Tarot card that covers "Fire Magic" and in it could be the many branches and paths of the possibilities of molding and shaping flame to your will using mana (and Words of Power) as the architecture that the flame then adheres to and acts under the guidance of--practicing the techniques would still logically allow one to become better at using a particular flavor of spell over time. You could unlock the card, path into the branches "Firebolt" and "Fireball" both, but end up using Firebolt way more than Fireball, and end up having a Firebolt that you're so accustomed to and well-versed at using, that you can do comparable or even more damage with it than your lesser-used Fireball spell. Still works.

Hell, it could even be a boon to the system. Perhaps there would be further branches beyond simple spell/skill unlocking/selection on these Tarots--perhaps the experience would be part of the requirement to unlock some paths, even--and the paths and branches are used to change the behavior of the spells, where the experience allows you to change the amount of power you can put in (mana cost) and get out (dmg) of the spell, and then beyond that the Mastery levels.

Again, nothing to say it can't be a part of the planned system. Open minds.
after thinking about it and considering possibilities....

If Fire was its own tree along with other element type spells - Water, Lighting, Poison ect....
Then you could have Bolt, Ball, Wall, Storm, Pillar, Spear ect... as their own spell type finisher
You could also have Combine, enhance, extend, overcharge, ect... become support style spells
all utilizing the Spell system from Eternal Darkness - of course then we would have to add MORE pargon just to get it to work
1629459315533.jpeg
1629459340042.jpeg

so on that system we would do something along the lines of
Combine - Fire - Lighting - Poison - Enhance - Pargon - Storm

to use more than one element I would think a need for Combine would be required else it would fizzle.
 
Ok...that doesn't really have much to do with this thread though. Sounds like it could be a new one. :unsure:
 
Ok...that doesn't really have much to do with this thread though. Sounds like it could be a new one. :unsure:
I believe its mostly in reference to what you said before. The discussion seemed to talk about similar thing but in two facets. You Meta posed a tarot card that consisted of "fire magic" with both Firebolt and Fireball on it..if not others. Suggesting a player would simply choose they prefer over the other. Varik and myself i believe suggested (what seems to be compatible with what is know) that firebolt and fireball would most likely be two tarot cards. Allowing a magik caster to use both if they wanted too.

The things it seems we all agree on is infact that the more you use one thing the better you should in fact get at it.

If i seem to have misrepresented you in some way maybe we just need a clarification. At least me maybe.
 
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You Meta posed a tarot card that consisted of "fire magic" with both Firebolt and Fireball on it..if not others. Suggesting a player would simply choose they prefer over the other.
That wasn't the important part of my suggestion, it was just a "for instance" not a "should be like this".
Again, I don't really care exactly how the individual skills are set up, as long as the system itself feels good to use and interact with.
The meat of my suggestion was the bit about things improving with more use of them, yes.