Livin

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If I remember it correctly, Denis mentioned that each class will have 3 subclasses and I thought it'd be fun to think up what those subclasses could be. Here is what has come to mind for me with regard to the liche, let us know what you're anticipating/hoping for the liche or any of the other undead.


Liche
Necromancer-Centered around creating countless of the mindless undead to do its bidding and potentially take command of those that it comes across.

Sorcerer-Deals in a variety of destruction magic and warps the environment around it to suite its needs.

Witch Doctor- Healer to the undead, creator of twisted abominations to the living; and unlike the necromancer they deal in quality over quantity, creating more complex and destructive undead to serve them.
 
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Thought I'd add what I thought of for the Revenant, let me know what you think.

Revenant
Dreadnought- The Pinnacle of Power and Presence, inspiring fear in it's enemies that could make a Banshee jealous as it channels the fires of its rage into reinforcing its body to the point of near invincibility and into its weapons to deliver blows of devastating destruction.

Warlord- The Leader of Legions as those who fall to it will rise ignited by the fires of the Revenant's rage and follow it into battle until the fires consume their bodies.

Berzerker- The Embodiment of Speed and Savagery as the fire of their rage propels them quickly through the battlefield, delivering numerous strikes in quick succession as it chops down its foes left and right.
 
Can't seem to stop thinking up stuff for the others and wanted to share, let me know if I'm being too aggressive with this.

Ghoul
Gourmet- Seeker of Savory Succulence that stalks the finest of flesh and devours them according to what it desires to improve about itself, from its intellect with the consumption of brains to its strength with the consumption of muscle.

Butcher- Master of Masochism that functions off of what parts of itself that it feeds to others from its rapidly healing flesh, restoring the health of the undead with its blood and creating minions of it's own from simple slimes as a result of regurgitating on a corpse to converting the living into unique abominations by forcing certain pieces of itself down their throats.

Feaster- Devourer of Death that consumes all things made of meat with no regard for source or freshness, failing in refinement while excelling in resiliency through its durable body and near limitless strength.


Banshee
Doomsayer- Foreteller of Death that reveals the order in which those they've marked for death on the battlefield shall perish, its power growing with the fear among those that remain as it dispatches one after another in the predetermined order until eventually the rest break rank and run for the lives they are about to lose as there is no escape.

Frightner- Master of Illusion that conjure all manner of phantoms that serve numerous functions, as simple as bait to draw the condemned away from the safety of others and quietly dispatched by the Banshee or preoccupy everyone as their deaths go unnoticed in the chaos of war or deceived into killing one another.

Siren- Singer of Slaughter that use their voice to perform a variety of functions such as hymns that beguile enemies into fighting for you and screeches that disorient or kill those enemies that are within range.
 
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Seeker of Savory Succulence that stalks the finest of flesh
An absolutely astonishingly amazing alliteration achievement! All allied alliterators appreciating awesomeness across America, Africa, Asia, Antarctica and all around applaud!
 
Vampire Subclasses

Strzyga

Lhiannan

Alukah

Unsure what they do, but man the names are cool.

Although the names should probably have something to do with the lore of the creatures.
 
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Let me try my hand at this.

Ghoul Subclasses

Devourer
The hunger demands it - meat sweet meat. Tendons and marrow. Blood and bile. Consume it all and leave none to waste. The devourers are the ghouls closest to their primal hunger and in exchange they can consume more than any other subspecies and get more from it. As a result they are the strongest and largest among the ghouls and their combat prowess is unmatched. But a devourer is far more than a mindless brute that bludgeons their way through battle. Their true strength lies in their ability to rip flesh right off of their enemies in battle and quickly consume it, mutilating their foes and enhancing their strength in a single move.
"That's quite a strong hand you have there. But not for long..."

Fleshshaper
The hunger brings many gifts. One of the most valueable among them is the ability to alter the from of the flesh. The Fleshshaper ghouls specialize in that talent. Those cunning creatures willingly reshape their body to be more deadly - sharper claws and teeth, stronger jaws and feet are some of the more rudimentary uses of fleshshaping. The more the ghoul specializes in this discipline the faster the transformations are and the longer they last. The devoted fleshshapers though have one ability that completely eludes any other subspecies - their ability to transform their body to look human. Or fae or whatever the native species of the land is. Stealth is a deadly weapon and a master in the art of shapeshifting is well adept at it having the ability to transform into a deadly storm of bone and claw at a moments notice.
"If I wanted I could transform this rotten body into the finest form, walk up to the king and lay my hands upon his speeding heart. Then with a thought a single bone would slice through my palm and into his chest. He would be dead before the guards have even notice he was attacked. Can your brute strength do that?"

Hurler
Not all ghouls are gifted with strength or finesse, some are blessed with more peculiar talents. The hurlers are not well liked even among other ghouls, mostly because they waste food, but their craft can be as deadly as the deadliest warrior or assassin. The hurlers have the smallest and most fetid of stomachs . They are able to regurgitate meat and bile, often at a great distance, inflicting horror and disease upon their enemies, lowering their morale and their strength. These ghouls would often coat their weapons in their poisonous bile and while preferring to stay at range they would often bite the foolish foe that got close to them causing infected wounds that would often disable limbs after a time. The master hurlers turn their stomachs into a welcome home for horrific parasites that can be called to assist their masters in battle.
"Don't look at me like that! It is very effective in battle! And the giant tape-worm is very cuddly at night!"
 
Well, here's another one. All revenants feel the rage inside them but it cannot be the only emotion they feel. I thought it would be interesting if their other predominating emotion is what defined what a revenant specializes in.

Sorrow
The revenants centered on the loss of their past lives are the ones that are mostly driven to protect their new undeath. The sorrowful ones do not feel pain and they do not seek to inflict it. They fight for the ones that cannot and they stand stalwart for their new family. Chanelling the Sorrow of their previous life the Revenant can create physical objects to aid him. He can create barriers that prevent an ally from being hit or a physical barrier that prevents their enemies from moving. The most powerful Sorrow ability though is the chains that the revenant can use to tie enemies to the ground or to pull them towards him. Those heavy chains can also be used as a devastating weapon for a limited time.
"I won't let that happen again."

Vengeance
The reveants that choose to pursue their revenege singlemindedly are probably the deadliest in single combat. Their thirst for vengeance impues their bodies with superier reflexes and hones their mind to percieve the world more keenly making them masters of both blade and bow. The vengenace revenants are able to see their enemies weak spots and strike them with unmatched precision. Vengeance is self-perpetuating and those revenants are also able to infect their foes with their madness forcing them into unwise actions such as leaving the group to pursue them and using their most powerful but slowest attacks relentlessly allowing for the revenant to control the battle and take advantage of their foolishness. This ability also allows them to set traps in advance and lure their enemies into a false sense of confidence before striking at the most opportune moment amidst a heavily rigged battlefield.
"It's not an obsession. It is a dedication to my purpose."

Fear
No one chooses to be terrified but some do not have any other option. In live the fearful reveants were often the powerless - the children, the paupers, the lonely men and women late at night. What befell them is no less horrific than what befell all other revenants but the thing that remained with them is the absolute terror of those last few moments. The fearful ones are not warriors and they do not like being in a fight. But the rage does not leave them any choice. Terrified they rush into battle screaming and lashing out, inflicting tremendous pain to anyone around them then quickly run away when the battle is too much and then rush back again into endless cycle of rage and terror. Their fear gives them psychic abilities allowing them to see incoming attacks far before anyone else and even teleport away a short distance. Those powers are not just defensive though. The fearful ones can throw back their enemies with their minds and even grasp objects and hurl them at enemies. Their shrieks can stun and disorient their foes and even turn some of the weaker ones into flight. The most powerful fearful ones can turn their fear into a psychic sword and quickly strike with into their enemies hearts.
"I'm not brave. I'm just so pissed off that my fear is a weapon!"
 
Fear
No one chooses to be terrified but some do not have any other option. In live the fearful reveants were often the powerless - the children, the paupers, the lonely men and women late at night. What befell them is no less horrific than what befell all other revenants but the thing that remained with them is the absolute terror of those last few moments. The fearful ones are not warriors and they do not like being in a fight. But the rage does not leave them any choice. Terrified they rush into battle screaming and lashing out, inflicting tremendous pain to anyone around them then quickly run away when the battle is too much and then rush back again into endless cycle of rage and terror. Their fear gives them psychic abilities allowing them to see incoming attacks far before anyone else and even teleport away a short distance. Those powers are not just defensive though. The fearful ones can throw back their enemies with their minds and even grasp objects and hurl them at enemies. Their shrieks can stun and disorient their foes and even turn some of the weaker ones into flight. The most powerful fearful ones can turn their fear into a psychic sword and quickly strike with into their enemies hearts.
"I'm not brave. I'm just so pissed off that my fear is a weapon!"

This could lead to creating symbiotic partnerships with other undead and I like it. Pair this Revenant with a Banshee and the Revenant could be charged by the Banshee's abilities of inducing fear while the Banshee also recharges off the fear from the Revenant.
 
Throwing my little Vampire subclasses down, for fun.

Scion - The Vampire weaved of Dark Gifts aplenty

Vampirism is an ascension. Whilst the ignorance of mortality mewl and cry fear and damnation onto us, yet they can’t help but look upon us with such murderous awe and fearful submission. We are the scions of the next step. The dark gods that the aspired wish to reach in hope that we may bestow onto them a taste of our power and those who oppose to be sportful tribute for our boredom and desires. Truly, as we weave power through our dark gifts and unleash in a myriad of ways that are almost unique upon each vampire bloodline, mortals can only weep that gods are real and we stride in cold flesh melding to perfection.

Conqueror - The Vampire who demand tribute of Sanguine War

Mortals are nothing but sheep. Opportunistic sheep who would turn on us at a moment’s weakness and whisper false praises in hope that we will turn our backs for their amusing little inventions that have erased a number of weaker and naive houses from our records. We, as their dark masters, must thin their herds with blades, slice their flesh and cleave their defiance. We , as their rightful conquerors, must show them the threshold that they may never reach with misplaced hubris and hatred bred by misplaced apostates of whispering greeds. Clad in our baroque armour and armed with artisan-beautiful blades, we are the Conquerors of the Clans and we are the punishing night.

Apostate - The Vampire who embraces the Hunger

For some, the Thirst becomes more of a necessity. It becomes a need and it drives them into a lust akin to the wildest beasts that haunt Deadhaus’ decrypted fauna. They welcome the spirits of the Beast within our souls until their bodies shift more akin than simple skins to wear for our convenience. They turn from the drooling maws and greedy claws of the savage Wolf’s Father to the shrieking majesty of the Greater Dire Bat, wanting nothing more than to gorge themselves in the guzzle of their enemies till only shriven piles of corpses drained of sanguine and marrow frozen in their last screaming moments that even the ghouls will be unable to find appeal to feast. While many of the clan courts find these apostates distasteful in their brutish lack of etiquette, they have a purpose that both sides are keenly awareful - to bring bestial fear to enemies of both the Mortal and Undead.
 
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My take on the Revenant (from a perspective of a video gamer, not so much as concept design) i also posted this before reading the threat so if someone else have posted something similar i would like to say i didn't plagiarize you we just happened to have the same idea/hopes/suggestions for the class. :)

Type 1: Deals massive damage, maybe even give it a higher crit chance to compensate for it's attack speed is lower than other type of Revenants or there is some sort of delay after a few attacks (so it's not able to chain to many massive damage attacks in row to easily destroy any enemy, or at least a lot of enemies at ones) this type of Revenant sacrifices it's defensive abilities to drastically increases its damage.

This type of Revenant could gain a minor attack power bonus the lower it's health is.
A charging attack, or a massive AoE attack generated by slamming it's weapon in to the ground makes sense with this archetype of the Revenant. (this is your typical heavy attacks damage dealer) I picture this as a massive hulking musclebound figure, especially the arms.

Type 2: Damage output is low, but to compensate it's damage mitigation is very high and so is it's "threat generation" and/or it have the ability to regenerate health (like turning it's rage in to health) in combat to keep itself alive while protecting other party members, it could also have abilities like stunning single targets, lowering their attacks damage or speed, or even the ability to buff it's team mates in some way, again i suggested attack power or damage.

This type of Revenant could gain a minor damage mitigation bonus the lower it's health is.
Adding fear effects/lowered moral effects or the added bonus to add bleed effects on to targets might be a smart way to add the debuff effects and make this archetype unique from the other Revenants and as an added bonus targets with bleed effects could synergies well with the vampire class. (this is you're typical tank) I could see this class type of Revenant not just having a shield, but using the shield as a weapon too and not just using it as a way to mitigate damage. I picture this class as a walking fortress in full plate with a towershield in hand.

Type 3: It's damage output is low and so it is damage mitigation, but to compensate for that this type of Revenant focuses on overwhelming it's enemies not with brute force but sheer numbers of rapid strike in successions to take out it's enemies by forsaking both it's defensive abilities and it's hard hitting abilities to enhance it's movement speed and it's attack speed.

this type of Revenant could gain a attack speed bonus the lower it's health is, or maybe also the higher it's hit combo is without taking any damage.
this type of Revenant could have an daze or stun effect ability it can use on enemies enemies to aide it's team or itself in solo play. (this is your typical damage dealer) I picture this as a more slender version of the Revenant, maybe more like an athlete or martial artist than anything else, no big mussels that gets in the way.
 
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Vengeance
The reveants that choose to pursue their revenege singlemindedly are probably the deadliest in single combat. Their thirst for vengeance impues their bodies with superier reflexes and hones their mind to percieve the world more keenly making them masters of both blade and bow. The vengenace revenants are able to see their enemies weak spots and strike them with unmatched precision. Vengeance is self-perpetuating and those revenants are also able to infect their foes with their madness forcing them into unwise actions such as leaving the group to pursue them and using their most powerful but slowest attacks relentlessly allowing for the revenant to control the battle and take advantage of their foolishness. This ability also allows them to set traps in advance and lure their enemies into a false sense of confidence before striking at the most opportune moment amidst a heavily rigged battlefield.
"It's not an obsession. It is a dedication to my purpose."

Fear
No one chooses to be terrified but some do not have any other option. In live the fearful reveants were often the powerless - the children, the paupers, the lonely men and women late at night. What befell them is no less horrific than what befell all other revenants but the thing that remained with them is the absolute terror of those last few moments. The fearful ones are not warriors and they do not like being in a fight. But the rage does not leave them any choice. Terrified they rush into battle screaming and lashing out, inflicting tremendous pain to anyone around them then quickly run away when the battle is too much and then rush back again into endless cycle of rage and terror. Their fear gives them psychic abilities allowing them to see incoming attacks far before anyone else and even teleport away a short distance. Those powers are not just defensive though. The fearful ones can throw back their enemies with their minds and even grasp objects and hurl them at enemies. Their shrieks can stun and disorient their foes and even turn some of the weaker ones into flight. The most powerful fearful ones can turn their fear into a psychic sword and quickly strike with into their enemies hearts.
"I'm not brave. I'm just so pissed off that my fear is a weapon!"
to me these two seem to be two sides of the same coin both are Control archtypes... if you were to have 3 classes the 1st one would be the tanky type. pick one of these two (or a mix of them) to be a 2nd type and then make a 3rd a DPS archtype where its about burst / sustained dmg...

I honestly thought a good alternative would be a Crusader Thorns type build (Diablo 3) though that may fall more under a tanky type character.

but I would think you would want to go for something that is just going to keep ramping up damage the longer the fight goes.
 
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I wanted to expand on the point Jalen made about each subclasses being connected to different states of death and the bit I mentioned about each subclass creating greater connections with different undead. Using the trinary it would be possible for a subclass to not only represent a different path of an undead's development but also the strength of their alliance with other undead. I thought of a pattern for this system.Trinary_Archetype1.png

M=Magickal Subclass
P=Physical Subclass
E=Essential Subclass

Revenant
M-Banshee
P-Vampire
E-Ghoul

Banshee
M-Wraith
P-Ghoul
E-Wight

Liche
M-Vampire
P-Banshee
E-Wraith

Wight
M-Wraith
P-Ghoul
E-Vampire

Wraith
M-Banshee
P-Revenant
E-Ghoul

Ghoul
M-Liche
P-Banshee
E-Wraith

Vampire
M-Liche
P-Revenant
E-Wight
 
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to me these two seem to be two sides of the same coin both are Control archtypes... if you were to have 3 classes the 1st one would be the tanky type. pick one of these two (or a mix of them) to be a 2nd type and then make a 3rd a DPS archtype where its about burst / sustained dmg...

I honestly thought a good alternative would be a Crusader Thorns type build (Diablo 3) though that may fall more under a tanky type character.

but I would think you would want to go for something that is just going to keep ramping up damage the longer the fight goes.
I don't really like the trinity system you see in most MMOs and other RPGs for that matter. I think that in an action game every character should be able to do damage and do something else. I think the different classes in an action game should differ in the way they deal damage, the way they avoid damage and what they can do. As for how the revenants fit that design - Sorrow would be a somewhat slower melee character that deals with damage by basically having a larger pool of health so he can choose to ignore it but is less mobile because of that and has a decent crowd control capabilities. Vengeance would be a very versatile character when it comes to dealing damage having both melee, ranged and trapper options and is able to deal with damage by mostly avoiding it through dodges but they will have a lot lower health in comparison to the Sorrow revenants and they are able to taunt enemies and lead them around. Fear would be primarily melee character with lots of mobility abilities and it deals with damage by seeing it coming very early and having more time to utilise those mobility skills by either retreating or rushing towards another target and in group play the Fear Revenant would actually signal the rest of the group that an attack is coming early - you could even add a two tier ability - tier one highlights the upcoming attacks for party members as soon as the revenant gets out of the way and tier 2 which would be much more expensive just hightings the upcoming attacks as soon as the fear revenant detects them coming.
 
I don't really like the trinity system you see in most MMOs and other RPGs for that matter. I think that in an action game every character should be able to do damage and do something else. I think the different classes in an action game should differ in the way they deal damage, the way they avoid damage and what they can do. As for how the revenants fit that design - Sorrow would be a somewhat slower melee character that deals with damage by basically having a larger pool of health so he can choose to ignore it but is less mobile because of that and has a decent crowd control capabilities. Vengeance would be a very versatile character when it comes to dealing damage having both melee, ranged and trapper options and is able to deal with damage by mostly avoiding it through dodges but they will have a lot lower health in comparison to the Sorrow revenants and they are able to taunt enemies and lead them around. Fear would be primarily melee character with lots of mobility abilities and it deals with damage by seeing it coming very early and having more time to utilise those mobility skills by either retreating or rushing towards another target and in group play the Fear Revenant would actually signal the rest of the group that an attack is coming early - you could even add a two tier ability - tier one highlights the upcoming attacks for party members as soon as the revenant gets out of the way and tier 2 which would be much more expensive just hightings the upcoming attacks as soon as the fear revenant detects them coming.
it has already been stated that ALL classes will be able to self heal, i was not going for the Trinity system (tank / heal / DPS) idea... your first example was a tanky type class, and the next two are more of a specialized control class. what i was recommending was more of a balls-to-the-wall type brawler - get in the thick of things and the more damage / longer the fight goes.. the more your damage continues to increase to create a very HIGH risk HIGH reward style play - if played right

i said take a look at the Crusader Thorns build as an example of someone who wants to sit there and get hit - yes it would fit on a more tank oriented person but would also fit a "FRENZY" style character as well.

hope that helps clarify what I was going for.
 
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it has already been stated that ALL classes will be able to self heal, i was not going for the Trinity system (tank / heal / DPS) idea... your first example was a tanky type class, and the next two are more of a specialized control class. what i was recommending was more of a balls-to-the-wall type brawler - get in the thick of things and the more damage / longer the fight goes.. the more your damage continues to increase to create a very HIGH risk HIGH reward style play - if played right

i said take a look at the Crusader Thorns build as an example of someone who wants to sit there and get hit - yes it would fit on a more tank oriented person but would also fit a "FRENZY" style character as well.

hope that helps clarify what I was going for.
If we are talking my proposed subclasses Sorrow would be control, Vengeance would be master of arms brawler with some melee and ranged options as well as some control options but they have to be set up in advance and Fear would be a highly mobile hit-and-run character with low health and no control at all. When I was writing those subclasses I did not try to get a full spectrum of gameplay options - I wanted to experiment in my mind with how a certain non-standard concept for a class would play.

Sorrow was kind of the easiest one to write - how would somebody who mourns the loss of his close ones would act. And then there is the metaphor of "chains of sorrow" that shaped it's abilities. Vengeance went the same way and there were two main inspirations for that subclass - the song Dark Avenger by Manowar, it's end in particular and the phrase "vengeance is a dish best served cold". So what would a very brutal but calculating and manipulative character would do? And then I though what other emotion would you feel besides anger if you are killed unjustly. And fear is actually pretty high up there. I am actually fascinated by the idea of how someone who is really batshit scared and batshit angry would act.

Perhaps I could add another subclass - Loathing or Hate and that could fit the gameplay element you are suggesting - someone who literally stands in front of the person he hates and spits on them their rage and hate overloading any fear and action against them making them stronger. I also suggested something similar in terms of mechanics in the Ultimates thread.

One last thing on those subclasses - I am writing suggestions that might get picked up but I am fully aware that nobody would outright get all of my ideas from a single post. That is why I try to write the things that seem most interesting to me although they might not fit exactly into the frame of a class and that might not present a complete playstyle-set. Even if something gets picked up I don't think it would be the full concept of a class but I hope that I might get someone on the team to resonate with part of the idea and shape it into something of their own.

Oh, and I am aware that Dennis had confirmed already that the game does not have a trinity-based balancing and I was very happy to hear it. :)
 
When we talk about specializations, I'd hope that they are not focused on gameplay styles, but rather specific powers of the classes.

For example, let's say the Banshee in DHS has three main pillars of powers: precognition, singing, and fear manipulation. Then each specialization tree has skills related to those powers. Then you, as the player, may choose to invest in whatever skills from each specialization tree that you prefer to create a gameplay style that you want, instead of going through specific, rigid and separate subclasses.

That should give a greater versatility to the players and make the game more open-ended. Maybe, for the purposes of classification, you'd say a Vampire which focused more on the powers related to the first specialization tree is "of that kind", yet he would possibly also have powers from other specialization trees, non-restrictively.
 
Both approaches have their positives and negatives IMO. If you go with soft sub-classes then you have the freedom to mix and match. If you go with hard sub-classes then you have can completely change how the character plays and its mechanics when a subclass is chosen without having to deal with abilities that might do opposite things, conflict with each other or result in a completely overpowered character when combined. I also think the lore can be more interesting with hard subclasses.

Still we don't know how much about what the actual system is, how many abilities there are or even how you develop your character - do you have one skillpoint per skill or many, are there different kinds of skill points, is there a stat system, are the skills organized in trees or is it a more complex graph or is it panes with tiers that require certain investment in the pane to get the next tier of skills or are they completely to choose. I know some of those are far more likely than other but we don't really know.

And you can actually kind of have the best of both worlds - you can have a large central skill graph that has subclasses on it's edges with skills complimenting a particular playstyle in the directions of the subclass nodes. You can choose any skills leading up to the subclass but you can choose only one subclass and choosing one unlocks a small specialized pool of abilities.
 
I'd like to revise my Doomsayer Banshee.

Firstly, if the name isn't to anyone's liking then I'd like to submit either Prophet or Seer as alternatives.

The biggest thing I'd want to change is what they do that warrants the title. Their power is in the ability to see everything that is around them and beyond.

What kind of abilities does something like that grant them? For starters they are able to see what is on the other side of barriers, from enemies waiting on the other side of the door to treasures hidden throughout; and spot them from great distances, through a variety of obstructions. They can also see the path that those they watch shall travel or move so that nothing is left to surprise, this includes how they will be attacked to enable moments of perfect evasion from multiple attacks from multiple sources at a time with deadly counters being possible with further advancement.

As for which state of undead this belongs to, I'm leaning towards magickal.
 
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I suppose I'll take a crack at an underappreciated race: the Wraith.

The very embodiment of fear and torment, the Wraith moves about at unparalleled speed, unhindered by the material structures of man.

The Ravager:
Single target focused, it moves short distances between its targets in the blink of an eye, unleashing an onslaught of torturous strikes on its victims' soul. Its Aura of Fear has a relatively short radius so as to avoid its targets becoming too widespread.

The Tormentor:
Capable of attacking multiple targets at once, it will slowly leech the very souls of those around it. Intent on torturing as many as possible, as much as possible, it will move about afflicting as many as it can with its accursed touch.

The Harvester:
Uninterested in facing its opponents head-on, it calls forth the tortured souls of its victims to fight for it. Having the largest Aura of Fear of any Wraith, it freely moves about, collecting more souls to do its bidding.