Varik Keldun

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so I figured it was time to delve into the Necroliberatas again - to start brainstorming over what's written.
everything that is BOLD is from the Necroliberatas
everything else is just my thoughts / ideas and may or may not be true

i am only going to post the full poem because it is short for the rest I will take small quotes - read the Necroliberatas for all the stories.

starting with "The Great Houses"
The nine great houses and their gods fraternal (we know there will be 9 playable houses, Fraternal could be family(actually related) or treated like family (think mafia))
Six elder gods usher in war eternal (unknown if more than 6 elder gods, maybe an elder demon for demonhaus instead? or possibly some houses share gods)
The runes of power allow ascension (collecting a certain amount or runes might make you more (ascend in strength like a god) or (ascend to previously unreachable places)
The octahedron promotes dissension (octahedron would be an 8 sided dice - dissension would be a disagreement between people)
The all powerful centre is unspoken (something more powerful than the elder gods perhaps in the center of the octahedron)
Understand the cosmos to be awoken (hidden messages or possibly directions / clues to runes of power or how to activate them - moon doors would be a good example)

Fragments speaks of the trianary archetype system.
One who embraces the three deaths never truly dies, but draws upon the pools of Body, Spirit, and Essence as energy
It also speaks of other houses with their own energies.
It is said by some that the false houses of men and giants and angels wield their own three energies
In the notes we get a good chunk of information.
His perception of Truth is limited by his perspective. A Higher Truth is rumored to be spoken of in the Book of the Obsidian Octahedron, most copies of which were denounced as heresy and burned at the Grim Council of Anu Maht...before the start of Deadhaus

in the Grim Council we get reaffirmation on the purge.
...sought to purge the Necroliberatas of all heresy...would glorify only death.
a confrontation about truths.

...central point of debate being whether three principles (Material, Magickal, and Essential) ruled over all races, or whether a larger Octahedron of forces might govern over a multiverse.
a lot was destroyed but some fragments still remained with rumors about gaining more power.
Today, only fragments of the heretical gospels have survived...collect enough of these fragments, they would re-assemble themselves into powerful scrolls that would grant the power of a Lich.


in the Lamentations we see Ngaztak write about.
...the physical, the magickal, and the essential are a worthy foundation to build upon, but this is not the path I exhort...
lies are like ogres... who are like onions... full of layers....
Hear me. We are in a time where everyone lies. Layer upon layer of deception...We will cut through the lies and show them the way.

All four of these passages are intertwined together and it got me thinking of an 8 sided dice and how things may or may not work but due to the fact that each side of a D8 shares a side with another part i would imagine that there would be three houses that share one side each.

something like this... (this is the right idea but the wrong location for connection points which leads to the proper one below)
trianary archetype type A.png
which in turn would lead me to a conclusion that there will be 12 different archetypes based off of 8 houses.


while making the new image i also made this one which could also be another way of looking at - where each haus would share 2 archetypes rather than one.
trianary archetype type B.png

as for the 9th house I cannot say where it would fit unless it is the unspoken center which may be able to pull from any archetype? - but this does not make 100% sense to me if it is a higher plane of sorts.

(EDIT) 9th haus would make more sense in the center pulling from the top(physical) and bottom(F) points and then from one of the center 4 bases(magic / essential / D / E) - with this you could make 12 classes using the middle grounds between physical and whatever F would be along the chosen center skill.

story wise I sense that we are going to see some fighting to learn of the higher truths - seeking out the "heratical lore" destroyed by the grim council before Ngaztak arrived. As Ngaztak states - "cutting through the lies." could be for or against the grim council or the heretics (or both) to learn more about the Book of the Obsidian Octahedron.
 
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Golden Xan

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I don't know if the octahedron represents all the Houses, but we know the Cosmology Map does, and having 8 sides and one center is an interesting connection that they may not have passed up. It does make a lot of sense.

Now, a few notes from me:

The nine great houses and their gods fraternal -> I believe that "their gods fraternal" means each House has a god of their own which "gave birth," initiated, the House itself. For Deadhaus, that's the god where the Banshees come from, a place that is apparently submerged in something.

Six elder gods usher in war eternal -> Here, I also believe the words are deliberate. Elder Gods, not Gods. I imagine these are beings above the gods that created the Houses. I'm not sure what that entails.

The all powerful centre is unspoken -> If this is in relation to a ninth House, then that's practically saying this House is stronger than all others. It might simply have something to do with the creation of the universe. Even the Elder Gods must have come from somewhere. If that's the case, perhaps the octahedron does not represent Houses at all.

It is said by some that the false houses of men and giants and angels wield their own three energies -> Despite anything said of the sort in the Necroliberatas, the humans are known not to be a "House". They may have their own organizations but they are not a part of the 9 playable Houses. And Angels could be either what we know as Angels, or something else.

How did you get to "12 different archetypes?" I didn't get that part.

Lastly:
The devs have mentioned that each House has its own trinary system with is own peculiar elements, so no House would share Vitality, Magick and Essence with Deadhaus.
 

Varik Keldun

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The nine great houses and their gods fraternal -> I believe that "their gods fraternal" means each House has a god of their own which "gave birth," initiated, the House itself. For Deadhaus, that's the god where the Banshees come from, a place that is apparently submerged in something.
I suggest in my statement that the gods of the different houses are related - either through elder god "parents" who created them or through organizations.You suggest fraternal as in father figure of the house, but that would be Paternal or Maternal - though there may be more than one god per house as well.
pa·ter·nal || ma·ter·nal/pəˈtərnl/ || /məˈtərnl/
adjective
adjective: paternal
both have the same meaning just replace father with mother.
1.of or appropriate to a father.
2.showing a kindness and care associated with a father; fatherly.

fra·ter·nal
/frəˈtərnl/
adjective
adjective: fraternal
1.of or like a brother or brothers.
2. of or denoting an organization or order for people, especially men, that have common interests or beliefs.
Six elder gods usher in war eternal -> Here, I also believe the words are deliberate. Elder Gods, not Gods. I imagine these are beings above the gods that created the Houses. I'm not sure what that entails.
I also believe it to be deliberate - but there are 9 houses so some of these elder gods have to oversee different lesser gods who oversee the different houses - the leper and the fetid prince per se.
It is said by some that the false houses of men and giants and angels wield their own three energies -> Despite anything said of the sort in the Necroliberatas, the humans are known not to be a "House". They may have their own organizations but they are not a part of the 9 playable Houses. And Angels could be either what we know as Angels, or something else.
true the humans are not a playable house - but Denis has already mentioned there will be lesser houses / factions in the game - again refering to the 7 suns of twilight - the fetid price was working to gain the human faction and in turn himself / "the dreamer" power (at least that's how i see it)
How did you get to "12 different archetypes?" I didn't get that part.

Lastly:
The devs have mentioned that each House has its own trinary system with is own peculiar elements, so no House would share Vitality, Magick and Essence with Deadhaus.
from the way i interpret fragments i see it outlining the trianary archetype system between houses.
the authors note is from the Onyx Triad (i have always associated onyx with black, and triad means 3)
it also talks about the Obsidian Octahedron (again black, but this time 8 sided)
an octahedron is 8 different triangles put together and they would connect (or have the same or similar features at the edge)

with the picture i put up there would be 12 different edges Magic / essence / physical / along with 9 others
this would still be fine with "different houses having their own trianary system" because they may use the system in a completely different way - a Giant is going to use physical similar to a Revenant, but unlike the revenant it is not undead and cannot "change states" so maybe it regerates or something along that line so it's still a completely different system.
 

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I see, thanks for explaining. :)

So you believe the Fetid Prince and the Leper to be gods? Gods of the same kind that the classes from the Houses are?
And that the entity that the Banshees answer to to be an Elder God? If that's the case, that means either some Elder Gods are patrons to multiple Houses, or some Houses have no patron at all, or patrons that are not Elder Gods.
 

Varik Keldun

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I see, thanks for explaining. :)

So you believe the Fetid Prince and the Leper to be gods? Gods of the same kind that the classes from the Houses are?
And that the entity that the Banshees answer to to be an Elder God? If that's the case, that means either some Elder Gods are patrons to multiple Houses, or some Houses have no patron at all, or patrons that are not Elder Gods.
Two great powers faced one another from either end of the table. They were opponents in a game beyond the reckoning of mortals - this COULD be undead true... but undead are not immortal they can face a "true death" - so yes it leads me to think they are actually lesser gods.
when i read this passage i think of "clash of the titans where they are looking down on the world moving pieces"
though in previous version of 7 suns Anu maht was not specified.

From the Jun 2020 ver. of the necro

INTRO
Half-dead bodies, blood, and tormented corpses
decorated the Royal Chamber. Shadowy
figures played on instruments made of flesh,
bone, and tendons accompanied by an acapella
of subdued moaning by the mutilated. It was a mighty
celebration of a match long overdue.
With a convoluted gesture, the cloaked figure burns a
crimson sigil on the board as a white knight falls screaming
with defiance and finally madness, adding to the macabre
display in the chamber.
......
The two great powers faced each other separated by the great
board. The board was not of the usual kind that any man
would understand, for this game was on the cosmic level.....
END
key points from all that are it was not a usual kind of board and it was on a cosmic level...

since then 7 suns has changed but i would like to believe that the prince and leper are still the same.
back to the newest ver. of the necro. we also get this passage where the leper and the fetid prince are defently serving different gods or elder gods.
“What a shame,” the prince smirked, standing tall once more. “It seems your lord has little more use for you… or perhaps it simply sees less than you thought.”

as a side note a lot of my crimsons twilight poem was based off of the previous version of the 7 suns
 
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Elveone

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I like the idea that each face of the octahedron could represent a house with each of the vertices representing an aspect with the square base being the 9th house. It would make sense that some of the houses share aspects. For example - the physical and the magikal seem to be something that you would see in a lot of houses. It would indeed be quite amazing to see what houses do not touch the physical at all. If I had to guess the physical would be the top of one of the pyramids, the other top being something utterly unfamiliar and the other two vertices that form the base of the pyramids might be divine and infernal or something like that.
 

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Very well done everyone! I guess it is time for a video :)
I honestly didn't think my speculations and analysis would garner such attention.
 

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Ever since yesterday I've been thinking about this occasionally and it makes even more sense. Generally when it comes to the fantasy that inspired DHS there is one constant - nothing comes for free. If there are 6 power sources in the world(possibly each one represented by an elder god and possibly - a realm of existence) then it would make sense that becoming powerful would bring you closer to one of the sources and distance you from the others. Choosing to operate on a single plane might be the simplest for the mortal mind to comprehend. As such now it makes more sense for the last house to not operate on 4 out of the 6 vertices but possibly to operate in 3 dimensional space between all 6.

Also I would revise my previous 2 suggestion about divine and infernal vertices. I think the vertices would be linked to philosophical studies. Currently we have Physical possibly representing the study of physics and Metaphysics, Truth(Magikal) or the search for and study of knowledge and truth which would represent the Epistemological branch of philosophy and Identity(Essential) which has to do with the mind and the soul which would be the representation of the Philosophy of the Mind and Language. Looking at the other subfields would leave us with:
- Aesthetics which would be the "critical reflection on art, culture and nature" and the study of beauty, art, taste, enjoyment;
- Ethics which would be the study of morals, of what is good and evil;
- Logic which is the study of reasoning and argument;
- Philosophy of Science which studies the philosophical and historical origins of science, how other fields affect the science and how science has affected the other studies;
- Political Philosophy which studies how the governments and other larger communities affect the individual and vice-versa, law, justice, property, obligations; - - Philosophy of Religion which studies religions from a neurological perspective, reason and faith;
- Metaphilosophy which explores the purposes of philosophy and its limitations.
Speculating what the other three vertices would be might go something like this. The Philosophy of Science could be included in the Magikal to some extend but it also kind of explores how philosophy applies to another field so I don't think its appropriate. The same goes for the Metaphilosophy which is studying how philosophy applies to itself which is weird and wonderful but inappropriate for the current situation all the same. Philosophy of Religion... we know that the gods are real in this world and I don't think we have neuroscience yet and if we do it might be under the domain of the Essential.
From the remaining - I would cram Ethics and Political Philosophies together and name that vertex Spirit which would deal with and draw power from the Community. I would place it as one of the 4 vertices at the bases of the two pyramids. One of the cool things of this vertex is that it might lead to hive minds which are kind of cool.
I would leave Aesthetics and Logic alone as vertices but placing them would be hard.
I think Logic should be the top of the second pyramid as the Physical is the top of the first. Generally the physical world kind of obeys logic but logic on its own evolves into Mathematics and in math there are some weird beautiful but utterly non-physical constructs that would be fun to see in-game. As for the name of that vertex - I wouldn't change Logic.
That leaves us with Aesthetics as the fourth of the vertices at the base of the pyramid. I think the concept of beauty as a power source is pretty interesting. I don't have an appropriate name for this vertex at the moment. I think the previously discarded Divinity might work here although it would be divinity in a very abstract way and Divinity might work just as well for Logic and as such I wouldn't use it for either.

Oh, and another thing that tangentially supports the theory - apparently octahedra can be used in music - "six musical notes can be arranged on the vertices of an octahedron in such a way that each edge represents a consonant dyad and each face represents a consonant triad". Given the musical nature of the title that might be something to think of.
 
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Varik Keldun

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Ever since yesterday I've been thinking about this occasionally and it makes even more sense. Generally when it comes to the fantasy that inspired DHS there is one constant - nothing comes for free. If there are 6 power sources in the world(possibly each one represented by an elder god and possibly - a realm of existence) then it would make sense that becoming powerful would bring you closer to one of the sources and distance you from the others. Choosing to operate on a single plane might be the simplest for the mortal mind to comprehend. As such now it makes more sense for the last house to not operate on 4 out of the 6 vertices but possibly to operate in 3 dimensional space between all 6.
Six elder gods usher in war eternal
The octahedron promotes dissension


those two lines make complete sense! Well done!

Oh, and another thing that tangentially supports the theory - apparently octahedra can be used in music - "six musical notes can be arranged on the vertices of an octahedron in such a way that each edge represents a consonant dyad and each face represents a consonant triad". Given the musical nature of the title that might be something to think of.
not a musician but damn thats cool and does definitely seem intended so i am sure you are on to something with this!


Also I would revise my previous 2 suggestion about divine and infernal vertices. I think the vertices would be linked to philosophical studies. Currently we have Physical possibly representing the study of physics and Metaphysics, Truth(Magikal) or the search for and study of knowledge and truth which would represent the Epistemological branch of philosophy and Identity(Essential) which has to do with the mind and the soul which would be the representation of the Philosophy of the Mind and Language. Looking at the other subfields would leave us with:
- Aesthetics which would be the "critical reflection on art, culture and nature" and the study of beauty, art, taste, enjoyment;
- Ethics which would be the study of morals, of what is good and evil;
- Logic which is the study of reasoning and argument;
- Philosophy of Science which studies the philosophical and historical origins of science, how other fields affect the science and how science has affected the other studies;
- Political Philosophy which studies how the governments and other larger communities affect the individual and vice-versa, law, justice, property, obligations; - - Philosophy of Religion which studies religions from a neurological perspective, reason and faith;
- Metaphilosophy which explores the purposes of philosophy and its limitations.
there was already things tossed out there for MINDHAUS and CTHULHUHAUS at one point in time.
so lets start thinking of opposites - which would also make the most sense to me.

for the opposite of physical I would HIGHLY consider MENTAL / THOUGHT / MIND / BRAIN POWER
for the opposite of magical i would consider technological (think steampunkish)
for the opposite of essential(spirit / soul) i would consider material or possibly something along a karma system or balance? (this is going to be the hardest one to decypher IMHO)

which would lead to something that looks like this
trianary archetype full list.png
 

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Well, if we go with every aspect being based on sub-category of philosophy and everything having opposites then I think we can define things as such:
Physical is something that exists in the here and now. It is something that "is". I think that the opposite would be "abstract". It can be "mind" but the mind combines aspects of truth and essence and logic. I chose logic as the opposite because pure logic is pretty abstract. It is a purely mental discipline as well and it is not something that the physical world touches.
If the essential is individual, personal and the power that comes from it comes from knowing oneself as I think it is then the opposite would be communal or societal. Hence why I came up with the proposed concept of "Spirit" being something that comes from the community, from the others in the same nation and even perhaps from interacting with other living organisms.
The magikal is something that deals with truth and objectivity. As such I would think that technology would actually not be an opposite of magic in this world bur almost a part of it. I think the opposite would be perception or subjectivity i.e. beauty, personal aesthetics.
 

Varik Keldun

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Not bad arguments for the opposites.
Let me explain my reasoning.

I say mind, you say thought. I am leaning more torwards referencing legacy of kain and the mentalist nupraptor and the house of the mind.

I say technology for the opposite to magic. This would be because magic has always been deemed mystical where as technology has been scientific.

As far as the opposite of essential i am grasping at straws. But based of of your answer with it being about self. Maybe the opposite is the "hivemind" aspect or greater whole - which fits with what you are saying with spirit.