klokwerkaos

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I was thinking a bit about the player hubs and the writer prompts list I put together I had some notions swirling in my head about undead culture and how it might look like in a world of deadhaus.

It seemed best to start with feeding since "the hunger" (of some kind) is generally what most share (whether they feed on blood, fear, souls, essence, etc.).

It seems kind clear that if certain areas are controlled by the undead, they would still want a healthy population of humans to feed on of course...

But isn't feeding in the streets just so pedestrian?

Why not come to a local restaurant, particularly if you're having a meeting with another undead.

Not something that warrants a giant celebtration feast, but like a night out at a pub or similar, perhaps discussing some skullduggery or coups and such.

While I imagine a concept like pits is lovely for ghouls, I don't imagine most undead are interested and satisfied by the concept of tearing flesh from bone and swallowing it raw... that's just so uncouth.

I imagine most restaurants would be run by an undead with mind control powers to keep the food mostly docile except in instances where maybe the goal is to invoke fear to feed off the suffering or something.

Service staff and orders imagine are handled mostly by ghouls as they can prepare the flesh as well as keep it organized (this one has low blood but plenty of soul, and this one is the opposite) and bring over orders from the various meats on display, which also ensures they also have plenty of flesh to chew at the end of the night when the various once living are now fully drained. Plus I imagine ghouls are more inclined to have an understanding of gourmet arts over most undead.

I imagine they might have a revenant as security, who also is able to enjoy pulverizing the left overs into stew before the ghouls consume it.

Entertainment of course would be necessary. I imagine some are even humans that are not allowed to be fully drained and instead are chef specialties that are kept on staff and perform in various ways (music, sword/aerial dancing [probably not fire] etc).

The establishments of course would be well kept and fancy enough for a lord, but likely have some various "private booths" below, where more torturous acts can occur without disturbing the meals of others.

Humans served at these establishments of course, are of good stock and not sullied by disease or drugs, if anything, an establishment is likely known for how delicious and pure their food choices are.

The whole system just makes it a nice, convenient and relaxing atmosphere to eat, rather than hunting down a random person in the street and who knows what kind of random thing you are getting. Hunting in the street is ewww.... it's for "the poors", the bestial, and the young. Get some culture!
 

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Will there be pizza?
 
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I thought this was supposed to be fancy
 

Varik Keldun

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I don't like this idea / concept at all.
First off, it is a Dark, Grim world setting.
Secondly Most of the Undead are "loners" who have decided to come under a single goal / banner.


It seemed best to start with feeding since "the hunger" (of some kind) is generally what most share (whether they feed on blood, fear, souls, essence, etc.).
- though vampires feed off blood, and Ghouls are gluttons for flesh... outside of that nothing has been stated about feeding.....


It seems kind clear that if certain areas are controlled by the undead, they would still want a healthy population of humans to feed on of course...
- there are a few cities that are within the clutches of Deadhaus' control, Jelrass being one of them, who is ruled over by a Baroness Vampire. they are allowed to live. within the city in the south east they tend to board themselves in and fear for their lives more. so there IS a healthy population of humans.


But isn't feeding in the streets just so pedestrian?

Why not come to a local restaurant, particularly if you're having a meeting with another undead.

Not something that warrants a giant celebtration feast, but like a night out at a pub or similar, perhaps discussing some skullduggery or coups and such.

While I imagine a concept like pits is lovely for ghouls, I don't imagine most undead are interested and satisfied by the concept of tearing flesh from bone and swallowing it raw... that's just so uncouth.

I imagine most restaurants would be run by an undead with mind control powers to keep the food mostly docile except in instances where maybe the goal is to invoke fear to feed off the suffering or something.
-Most Vampires - being the ones most likely to even consider this dining facility - all I can think of here is the True Blood show - are not your new age run of the mill sparkly, sex drivin vampires... they are MONSTERS
-that being said, they are again soloists brought under a single cause who have been doing their thing, by themselves for years, and only come together when its a benefit to their personal goals....
-Ghouls will literally dig up bodies from a grave to eat - i don't honestly see them "sitting down in a tux to enjoy a fanciful night out"
-I don't honestly think any undead would want to waste the time to use enough "mind control" to keep a healthy stock of humans. this just does not make sense to me.

Service staff and orders imagine are handled mostly by ghouls as they can prepare the flesh as well as keep it organized (this one has low blood but plenty of soul, and this one is the opposite) and bring over orders from the various meats on display, which also ensures they also have plenty of flesh to chew at the end of the night when the various once living are now fully drained. Plus I imagine ghouls are more inclined to have an understanding of gourmet arts over most undead.

I imagine they might have a revenant as security, who also is able to enjoy pulverizing the left overs into stew before the ghouls consume it.

Entertainment of course would be necessary. I imagine some are even humans that are not allowed to be fully drained and instead are chef specialties that are kept on staff and perform in various ways (music, sword/aerial dancing [probably not fire] etc).

The establishments of course would be well kept and fancy enough for a lord, but likely have some various "private booths" below, where more torturous acts can occur without disturbing the meals of others.
-ghouls would, I suspect just consume the "food" being the gluttons they are have an insatiable hunger.
-Revenants as security? who would you expect to be dumb enough to attack an establishment that is in the middle of an undead controlled city that is full of monsters. aside from that I dont think Revenants have the capacity to stand still that long without breaking something...
-Entertainment? well kept and Fancy? - again this is a dark, grim world where we play MONSTERS. Not a world where we are playing fanciful upper class folk who even care about wine and dine.

Humans served at these establishments of course, are of good stock and not sullied by disease or drugs, if anything, an establishment is likely known for how delicious and pure their food choices are.

The whole system just makes it a nice, convenient and relaxing atmosphere to eat, rather than hunting down a random person in the street and who knows what kind of random thing you are getting. Hunting in the street is ewww.... it's for "the poors", the bestial, and the young. Get some culture!
-Humans are on the brink of death, there is no "Good stock" not sullied by disease? do we have medical treatment centers in the land of the dead to treat diseases we don't care about?
-convenient maybe, but there would be nothing nice, or relaxing in that atmosphere. and then again.... "The Hunt" is part of the fun isn't it?
 

klokwerkaos

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First off, it is a Dark, Grim world setting.
I don't understand how that precludes the notion of having a feasting place to eat people?

Please explain to me in detail? Will some undead prefer the hunt? Absolutely, but the concept of heirarchies and upper echelon society is nothing new to the darkest of the dark undead settings, I have to say that unless you have some reasoning I don't understand that I very much disagree.

Be it Kain, VtM, or a million other sources, there is societal differences between those of lesser and greater power any time a substantial population exists, of undead or otherwise.

I'm not sure exactly why you don't think humans being treated as cattle and living their lives as perpetual slave food stock doesn't fit with the "grim dark" theme... to me that's exactly grim and dark... please explain.

I think you might be picturing this as some sort of olive garden or something... it's more a meat market dressed as dine in.
Revenants as security? who would you expect to be dumb enough to attack an establishment that is in the middle of an undead controlled city that is full of monsters. aside from that I dont think Revenants have the capacity to stand still that long without breaking something...
Other undead... or did you think they all get along peachy?

It's less about attacking/robbing the establishment and more about making sure the patrons don't get out of control, and even then it's more as a deterent than anything. There's a huge difference between a place that doesn't have security and one that does with rowdy folk about. (Used to bounce a bit after I got out of the service a good lifetime ago).

While I don't believe it's been explicitly stated, I don't think it would make much sense that all undead get along all the time given that they are mostly solitary, selfish predators.


With stuff like that you get something that resembles slightly orkish culture in WH40k where the stongest is the only one that unites and there are still squables between units and individuals. Even if you don't carry it the extreme, soldiers on the same side of a war, united by a charismatic leader still turn on eachother even though they are brainwashed not to in human societies.


- though vampires feed off blood, and Ghouls are gluttons for flesh... outside of that nothing has been stated about feeding.....
That is correct, however after viewing lore and other systems, it becomes pretty clear most of the undead feed off of something. From a mechanical aspect it makes sense that they should feed on separate resources in most cases. Whether that proves true or not, it is heavily suggested that undead of the intelligent variety generally require something to sustain them.


- there are a few cities that are within the clutches of Deadhaus' control, Jelrass being one of them, who is ruled over by a Baroness Vampire. they are allowed to live. within the city in the south east they tend to board themselves in and fear for their lives more. so there IS a healthy population of humans.
That seems to support what I'm suggesting rather than counter it.


-convenient maybe, but there would be nothing nice, or relaxing in that atmosphere. and then again.... "The Hunt" is part of the fun isn't it?
That depends on your RP fantasy. It's completely viable to prefer either.


-Humans are on the brink of death, there is no "Good stock" not sullied by disease? do we have medical treatment centers in the land of the dead to treat diseases we don't care about?
Even if they had to be imported that's just more world building fodder (who imports them? Is there a preferred nationality? how are they stowed in travel? etc.). Where there is a desire a market will find a way.
 
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Varik Keldun

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I don't understand how that precludes the notion of having a feasting place to eat people?

Please explain to me in detail? Will some undead prefer the hunt? Absolutely, but the concept of heirarchies and upper echelon society is nothing new to the darkest of the dark undead settings, I have to say that unless you have some reasoning I don't understand that I very much disagree.

Be it Kain, VtM, or a million other sources, there is societal differences between those of lesser and greater power any time a substantial population exists, of undead or otherwise.

I'm not sure exactly why you don't think humans being treated as cattle and living their lives as perpetual slave food stock doesn't fit with the "grim dark" theme... to me that's exactly grim and dark... please explain.

I think you might be picturing this as some sort of olive garden or something... it's more a meat market dressed as dine in.
it precludes it due to the fact that most of these undead Prior to Deadhaus' rise were Solitary type monsters, if they had "cattle" or "food stocks" they had their own private place for them. an example here would be Voradors' Mansion - he enjoyed the lifestyle but its not something he went out for....

your suggestions paint a picture of a fancy wine and dine place not me.

Why not come to a local restaurant, particularly if you're having a meeting with another undead.
Entertainment of course would be necessary. I imagine some are even humans that are not allowed to be fully drained and instead are chef specialties that are kept on staff and perform in various ways (music, sword/aerial dancing [probably not fire] etc).

The establishments of course would be well kept and fancy enough for a lord, but likely have some various "private booths" below, where more torturous acts can occur without disturbing the meals of others.

a meat market A.K.A. a butcher shop is exactly that.... a butcher shop.... where they just slaughter cattle and sell it... not a place where there's entertainment - and clean tables and multiple teirs and booths for patrons.


Other undead... or did you think they all get along peachy?

It's less about attacking/robbing the establishment and more about making sure the patrons don't get out of control, and even then it's more as a deterent than anything. There's a huge difference between a place that doesn't have security and one that does with rowdy folk about. (Used to bounce a bit after I got out of the service a good lifetime ago).
Even if this "establishment" were to become reality, I still would not want a Rev. as a "bouncer" because they are the most likely to DESTROY the damn place once they get goin on their RAGE mechanic...... (oh which is also their FUEL/FOOD btw)



- there are a few cities that are within the clutches of Deadhaus' control, Jelrass being one of them, who is ruled over by a Baroness Vampire. they are allowed to live. within the city in the south east they tend to board themselves in and fear for their lives more. so there IS a healthy population of humans.
That seems to support what I'm suggesting rather than counter it.

-quite the opposite, I would imagine that in Jelrass, the Baroness either has a system in place where her "Loyal" citizens either donate blood on a daily/weekly basis, or choice "stock" is brought to her, and those she deems worthy. She's not going to leave her home for either of those situations.

in the other city, for the humans its Hide or Become dinner.

That depends on your RP fantasy. It's completely viable to prefer either.
It's not my RP fantasy... it's more about the LORE of the game in and of itself.... NONE of undead listed aside from --POSSIBLY-- the Vampire would even be interested in that lifestyle and even they, again are more of a solitary creature.
Rev - Hate drives me to kill, i feed upon pain, hatred
Banshee - sorrow drives me to kill, i feed upon fear, loss
Wraith - Torment drives me to kill, i feed upon suffering, pain
Ghoul - food drives me to eat more... and more and more and more.....
Liche - Knowledge and power drive me - a fresh new corpse to use as a new mana source fuels me...
Wight - we don't know yet
Vampire - the only one who is not pre-dispositioned - feeds off the blood.
 

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I don't hate the basic idea of this, like, "Meeting place where undead who eat people can eat people together". It'd be interesting as a sort of new thing that's arising from Deadhaus' bringing more undead together in a society. As they build social structures together, what does that look like? At the very least, vampires apparently think of themselves as nobility, so it seems like they'd be into having a service industry that caters to them of some kind. Do liches form research institutes together? Do the undead form martial orders? Military structures? If they do none of this, then what does it really *mean* for them to be united and for Deadhaus to have a king?

I'm not as much a fan of this particular implementation, however. I expect any ghoul that cooks to keep all their food to themselves, though a ghoul who was once a chef and now scours battlefields for the perfect corpse to cook sounds like a pretty rad idea. A revenant seems like it'd make a poor bouncer, since it'd most likely splatter any unruly guests against the floor instead of just kicking them out. It's unclear what undead other than vampires and ghouls actually eat, if anything.

Like overall I'm all about exploring undead social structures and meeting places and stuff, but I'm just not into this specifically.
 

klokwerkaos

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@Varik Keldun I think maybe some choice wording I used is probably giving you the impressions of a fine dining establishment and such, and I'm less concerned with that and more the stuff @Quamobrem mentioned, exploring the ideas of what undead society looks like.

When a group rises to power social norms that reflect the needs of those in power tend to take shape.

The stuff I was trotting out about a restaurant were more points I was seeking to jump off from and see about creating certain kinds of pillars of society.

I can see that I didn't communicate that well mostly because it's something I'm half thinking out loud about to see what others have to say.

I still don't think it's a bad idea though I do think what you envisioned from what I said isn't quite what I had in mind and I'll credit that to my communication failure because I can see how that impression could be taken reasonably.

What's more important to me though is discovering what the society of undead actually looks like and why (ie, not just for vampires but all undead)... I kind of eluded at this in the opening portion but I suppose a better way to put it would be:

What kinds of things do you think would make interesting and unique societal pillars in this kind of world?

Obviously we don't want to go too overboard with any one thing as early on is likely the dawn of when these things are happening.

That said, I think having an established neutral ground is important for solitary hunter types that are forming a society.

While the notion of liches forming colleges and stuff makes sense and all, that's not the society as a whole, that's just an aspect of a society.

IE, where do adventurers in an RPG meet? At the tavern. Undead don't eat food or drink ale generally speaking, so there needs to be a replacement for that which isn't an official setting, such as a banquet or court or something like that.
 

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I can see what you mean. I believe you are right to think that there will be places in which the undead will meet. But I don't think it will be particularly to eat. More like politics, or whatever it is that unites them. It will likely be something different from anything we can imagine. Some undead existed prior to Deadhaus, but something was able to unite them, and I believe this is something that will be explored in the story of the game. Perhaps something more religious or linked to their origins (such as their god(s)), rather than food.
 

klokwerkaos

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I can see what you mean. I believe you are right to think that there will be places in which the undead will meet. But I don't think it will be particularly to eat. More like politics, or whatever it is that unites them. It will likely be something different from anything we can imagine. Some undead existed prior to Deadhaus, but something was able to unite them, and I believe this is something that will be explored in the story of the game. Perhaps something more religious or linked to their origins (such as their god(s)), rather than food.
I mean I'm certain there will be political courts, but not everyone is suited to political courts.

Some people need a "tavern" (insert replacement) because not everyone is the elite or wants to be. That's kinda my thought. A place of neutral ground to mingle between sects where there a shared reason to be there. It might not have existed in ages past, but by the time players hit the servers there will be enough draw for such a thing to warrant one. I'm thinking of this as more from an RP/world building perspective though, not so much as a game mechanic, though I'm sure it certainly could be.

Religion/gods though, I feel that's a specialized sort of roleplay experience (nothing wrong with being an atheist vampire, or even if gods walk the streets, not concerning yourself with it)... not broad enough to serve the function of being open to randoms.
 
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Some of the replies to this make it very clear who has read the lore and listened to what Denis and Jack have said about Deadhaus, the world, it's history and the dynamics and politics of the universe they are building.
There is nothing wrong with having your own Vampire fan fic / fan service, there is a huge white wolf / world of darkness for you to explore.
But to quote those creating this world " these are not your sexy, lustful LA vampires. These are Monsters "
 

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I see the "these are monsters" quote get thrown around a lot to shut down various things. I think a lot of y'all have a pretty specific view of what "being a monster" is, and should be more open to different interpretations of that. There's little that a real-world monster loves more than a hierarchical power structure that treats their "lessers" as inhuman, and talking about how undead, particularly undead that *explicitly call themselves nobility*, would create such structures isn't exactly asking for "sexy LA vampires". Again, I think this particular implementation is a bit silly, but literally every monster doesn't live in a cave and only exist to stab people, and this game would be much less interesting if that was all we got.
 
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It gets thrown around a lot because both Denis and Jack have said it and used it to explain their vision of how they shall be. Many wish to subvert their idea or misrepresent what they are going for, but this will only lead to you being disappointed. If you are expecting something but get something different you may feel let down. we are simply trying to explain what those making the game are doing to prevent issues further down the line.

This is why we say what we are saying. we are not trying to invalidate anyone's enthusiasm or to tell them their ideas for fantasy are wrong.
We are simply explaining to you what we know based on what the people making the game have said and are a little too busy making the game to respond to everything on the forums.
 
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Quamobrem

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Frankly, I do not have the energy to argue this. Just, please consider how committed you are to this being a welcoming community, and how committed you are to the idea of a community-driven game/setting, and whether over-extrapolating a single quote repeatedly to shut down people trying to contribute to the community is actually contributing to those goals.
 

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We are very open and welcoming to many different people and anyone who wishes to join the community.
What has happened is simply some people come along and misunderstand or do not look into the lore, then these people begin writing their own self insert fan fiction {which itself is not really that bad but also not helpful as it may mislead others new to the community about what the game and lore is really about}.

Then when older members of the community who are more familiar with the lore, the world and the setting try to say how this would not fit within the world that is being created, people are getting upset with them.

All we want to do is make sure everyone is on the same page in regards to what is being created /developed so that when the game is playable that people are not disappointed because it does not match what they viewed or wished it would be. I would just not want people to set their expectations in the wrong direction and then be disappointed or angry.

We want everyone to have fun and enjoy the game.
 

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This whole thing sounds like someone going to a restaurant and asking for rice and then being told they don't service rice because its an Italian restaurant but then the customer demands them to sell it there and to get rid of the Italian food even tho the restaurant has it's own brand which everyone else likes and would not like eating rice. The customer has the idea that they are correct even tho they would be the only one who would enjoy it and the restaurant would lose their customer base since they are there for the Italian food.
 
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You know, with the world being a big place and there having many individual kinds of undead, I'm sure some of them will have made feeding grounds where they might allow for visitors. That is to say, it could fit some peculiar locations, or service some kind of secondary quest. Vampires who created a feeding den, or ghouls that gather to feast on massive battlegrounds of old, where multiple bodies were piled together over the ages. Perhaps something that the players can create.

But I do think that they might not make such a hub a major point of encounter for all players. It could still exist somewhere, though. It would likely just be very brutal and inhuman, however. Bouncers and pizza would be out of place. :)
Private booths, revenant chefs... that's a human organizational structure.