klokwerkaos

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You know, with the world being a big place and there having many individual kinds of undead, I'm sure some of them will have made feeding grounds where they might allow for visitors. That is to say, it could fit some peculiar locations, or service some kind of secondary quest. Vampires who created a feeding den, or ghouls that gather to feast on massive battlegrounds of old, where multiple bodies were piled together over the ages. Perhaps something that the players can create.

But I do think that they might not make such a hub a major point of encounter for all players. It could still exist somewhere, though. It would likely just be very brutal and inhuman, however. Bouncers and pizza would be out of place. :)
Private booths, revenant chefs... that's a human organizational structure.
So that begs the question though... if that's the human organizational structure, where is the neutral ground meeting place that doesn't require formal obligations and obfuscations?
 

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The player's private den, perhaps? From what Denis seems to talk about, it sounds like we'll have plenty of leeway to customize our own dungeons. And then we can invite whoever we want to visit them. But in the regular game world, I can't imagine a place that wouldn't be regulated in some way or another, except for the occasional random encounter with NPCs outside of specific regions.

A neutral ground must have rules, otherwise it would not be neutral, right?
 

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Sure, the undead are monsters but they are all monsters that used to be human and with the recent expansion of Deadhaus - all of these monsters have been human up until relatively recently. If they have cities, squares, temples and homes then it only follows that there would be places in the city where one would get food especially with the vampire culture being based on ancient rome where they had such establishments.

I would not imagine those places to be like the one described in the OP though as it kind of borders on parody because of some of the details and odd specifics. Humans being of "good stock" and the forcefully pretentious tone specifically rub me and perhaps some of the others the wrong way. Revenant as a bruiser makes sense but then again the brute as a doorman is also an overused trope that also makes the whole thing feel somewhat comedic. I personally would not trust the creatures that constantly starve and would eat things directly from the grave as the cooks or servers both to keep the taste of the meal and the meal itself intact before being served. I don't think the entertainment would be human at all unless it involves dying in some way - I don't think undead would be impressed by the physical and mental traits of the mortals that seem to be inferior to them in every way.
 

klokwerkaos

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The player's private den, perhaps? From what Denis seems to talk about, it sounds like we'll have plenty of leeway to customize our own dungeons. And then we can invite whoever we want to visit them. But in the regular game world, I can't imagine a place that wouldn't be regulated in some way or another, except for the occasional random encounter with NPCs outside of specific regions.

A neutral ground must have rules, otherwise it would not be neutral, right?
Agreed, but I feel like the personal player home isn't a neutral meeting ground in the society, it's rather an exceptionally uneven ground, not only limited to the whims of the player as to who they allow in and why, but also if they are online or not and willing to engage.

What I'm seeking a replacement for is more the "tavern replacement".
 
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Sure, the undead are monsters but they are all monsters that used to be human and with the recent expansion of Deadhaus - all of these monsters have been human up until relatively recently. If they have cities, squares, temples and homes then it only follows that there would be places in the city where one would get food especially with the vampire culture being based on ancient rome where they had such establishments.
That's fair. I think the Jelrass story is a good example of that. There might be places like this in the world, indeed.
What I'm seeking a replacement for is more the "tavern replacement".
Perhaps a town in which all kinds of undead have their own private interests in would be enough for them to meet while going about their business, such as a Necropolis. It is likely they already have such thing planned in some way or another.

We know Deadhaus Sonata is not an MMO, but we also know that we'll be meeting people randomly on our exploration, if this isn't somehow deactivated by the player, and if there is a place in which all undead have their own reasons to visit, we'd be meeting random players and NPCs of all classes, and we could form friendships if we decided to talk to them, much like in MMOs.

Perhaps you can add a question on the Ask a Dev section: "Will players have a main hub in which all classes can and will meet for things outside of story progression, such as a tavern in tabletop RPGs?"
 

klokwerkaos

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Perhaps you can add a question on the Ask a Dev section: "Will players have a main hub in which all classes can and will meet for things outside of story progression, such as a tavern in tabletop RPGs?"
The answer to that is yes already, by virtue of a different question I asked (what activities will be available in player hubs).

The question I'm more coming from is what does undead sociology look like in action?

Even a necropolis still needs a spot for neutral meeting ground because not every activity is for everyone.

Imagine being a vampire walking into the liche college and expecting to be on equal footing.

An anonymous location where everyone has reason to exist gives them reasons to interact and form alliances and connections beyond the superficial "hoomanz R bad".

A marketplace is generally not a good fit for this but it's the first thing I thought of, the reason it generally doesn't work is because the marketplace bazaar, as a trope, is generally a source of potential danger (theft, fraud, mugging, accidental rampaging demon, etc.)
 

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Just to point out, that might be the entire point in the society of the Undead. If each group is trying to point out their own supremacy over the others, it makes sense why either no group would want to meet on equal footing (Perhaps outside of peace negotiations between guilds or groups or sects) and for things like a request of information, it would be a "Walk into my den to find out" as both a display of dominance and an attempt to intimidate your opposition. But if you want to say meet with friends, you could have a Den for your group. This way you all meet under equal footing, and it can double as a way to flaunt your group's dominance over other groups who wander in for either a discussion or for a possible attack.
 

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Besides, to add on, this isn't an MMO as it's been established. But there can be other places where players can meet. For example taking the relays in Warframe. You can hang out there, but the purpose written down for them is that players go there, do one or two things they need to do that they can't do from their ship, then leave. We could have something like that easily in Deadhaus with out it being something out of character for the established world like a tavern. A street market could work easily, since Vampires, if they don't have time to go out hunting for blood, can easily buy human cattle to sate their thirst. Same with Ghouls. Liche might need ingredients and such. An open market where if players want to hang out on somewhat equal footing, they can. And others can just go about doing their quick (and maybe disgusting) business then leave. It doesn't have to be anywhere near as classy or pointless as a tavern.
Edit: To add on this could also help with the "always trying to gain the upper hand" part of the undead society, since players could overhear conversations and gain the upper hand with knowledge.
 
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klokwerkaos

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Just to point out, that might be the entire point in the society of the Undead. If each group is trying to point out their own supremacy over the others, it makes sense why either no group would want to meet on equal footing (Perhaps outside of peace negotiations between guilds or groups or sects) and for things like a request of information, it would be a "Walk into my den to find out" as both a display of dominance and an attempt to intimidate your opposition. But if you want to say meet with friends, you could have a Den for your group. This way you all meet under equal footing, and it can double as a way to flaunt your group's dominance over other groups who wander in for either a discussion or for a possible attack.

I have a bit of an issue with this from a mechanical aspect, please bear with as this is a bit of mouthful since it touches on several principles.

If players should expect based on current game designs that they will party with other players, this propagates an in world factions system that is based on class rather than RP principles.

First, this never feels good. If you've ever played WoW you know that the boundaries for Horde VS Alliance always feels super artificial and stupid and if we're honest, kinda racist. Plus the plot frequently contradicts the existence of these factions being a long term staple as they often work together and then immediately drop all forms of negotiation and return to being at war as soon as it's convenient for the plot. All in, bad story telling, not that I think anyone is trying to push wow for a pulitzer and it is what it is, and serves it's function well enough, but I'd hope DHS aims higher.

This is because in DHS narrative is intended to be a strong point, where as with WoW narrative is more of a secondary background mechanic where largely your participation is virtually meaningless as the game world is identical and progresses as it does regardless of your action or inaction.

In DHS each class while being self sufficient is likely to have it's own strengths and weaknesses mechanically, and thus it makes sense to want to have a diverse party (whether there is holy trinity stuff or not). Having strict factions like that would either make that impossible or at least narratively discourage such things.

I don't think it's uncommon for people to gather in like kinds, as that's normal, but greater drama and story telling is generally easier to access when we don't rely on shallow characteristics like "you're vampire, I'm a vampire, we're friends now" and instead gets to the meatier heart of it when we consider things like values, principles and goals of a character. I don't think it's controversial to say that this is where RP takes the wheel and shines, not when you get a +1 bonus to your stat sheet.

Because players in theory "should" be encouraged to develop their own motivations, subtexts, goals and values, this means there will be a diverse cast and playstyles within the community in the game, hence why I think such a "neutral ground" is a necessity. I imagine courts will exist where say clans can meet and do political stuff at the local lord's sanctum, but again, not everyone is there (in DHS) for political intrigue and in many cases this can directly oppose a character archetype.

The one reason I don't like the marketplace is because there's every reason to shank your enemy while they are distracted and shopping. Pretty much all marketplace bazaar tropes center around these tropes of conflict, and probably for good reason if we dig in. Obviously tropes and expectations can be subverted, but that also requires some master strokes to make it believable.

I also agree that "something like a warframe relay" is exactly what I'm asking for, but would caution against using that particular design as a template as I feel they are one of the worst possible implementations of a player hub I have ever seen in a game, and I cite the fact that their implementation/participation is artificially induced and could just easily exist in any other context, likely to better effect.
 

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Klokwerk you seem to be laboring under the assumption that the classes actively fight and kill each other. I'm guessing even the dead know that a haus (Pardon the pun) divided cannot stand. They probably dabble more with manipulation, blackmail, and asserting dominance rather than just killing each other mindlessly. As for teaming up against the living and forgoing hostilities between one another. People do that in real life, such a thing has happened all throughout human history, and if you need some sort of binding to each after a sudden conflict against one enemy, that rarely ever happens. It might go against what we know from traditional story telling, but that's because it remains real and happens all the time. Even the Ghoul vs Vampire "war" that happened and still happens is mostly in fun. Even in a society built on deceit and backstabs, there are cultural rules. Even in the Underdark in D&D, if you're caught killing someone your punished, but if you kill someone and no one can claim a witness, even if everyone knows you did it, you've followed the rule and people will actually applaud you. As for the undead, as I said a haus divided cannot stand, so chances there might be slight temporary deaths, but probably very few permanent deaths to the undead ranks by the undead themselves.
Even in nature irl, species which fight over territory, rarely ever kill each other, and when they do, it's mostly an accidental fatal wounding. Most species will wrestle and when one has had enough it relents. I'm sure the undead are smart enough to if not having an established similar system to at least know that killing the rival lord is improper while you could instead humiliate them or damage their title or name rather than outright killing them. Besides, as was established with the Red Lady, every class doesn't even get along with it's own class. There are rivalries that occur in the Vampire home, and probably everywhere else. Such as a Liche might ruin another Liche's experiment or steal the results. Backstabbing seems to be a common rule as long as you aren't caught directly. As I said, the groups seem to favor displaying power, and killing your enemy is a momentary thing. Keeping them alive to walk over them and wave your superiority in front of there face is 1. Far more satisfying for the winner. 2. Encourages the defeated to get stronger for revenge. and 3. Makes sure that the overall numbers don't decrease at insane rates.
 

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lol why does DHS need a tavern?? There are only 6 people per instance... it isn't going to be hundreds or thousands like WoW. I think this is kind of a pointless conversation tbh. I think the majority of plot will not be happening inside a club but rather on the battlefield.

I think the biggest problem here is that a few of us might have the "Chosen One" syndrome. The game is about the narrative as a whole, not you. The fact that they're considering permadeath proves that. I dunno, this whole thing just seems not only weird and out of place, but also like you're trying to make the game like so many other things already in the genre. Denis & co. have stated many times that they don't want to do what everyone else is doing. This post slips into cliché that I don't think the devs want. The Ages will span so much time and they're going cosmic horror of millennia, not zoomed in on time like from the perspective of the short lifespan of humans. What your character has to discuss at a tavern is meaningless.

Don't get me wrong, it's good to bounce ideas around. This is clearly a divisive one. Read as much of the lore as you can, though. Giving menial roles like bouncer and chef to the timeless undead is almost comical when you look at the pictures, read the lore and watch the radio plays.
 
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klokwerkaos

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Klokwerk you seem to be laboring under the assumption that the classes actively fight and kill each other. I'm guessing even the dead know that a haus (Pardon the pun) divided cannot stand. They probably dabble more with manipulation, blackmail, and asserting dominance rather than just killing each other mindlessly.
I don't think mindless killing is always the answer, I do think it's an inevitable outcome though, on a long enough timeline... which we have given that we're effectively immortal.

Sometimes it's just easier to eliminate the problem at the root.
As for teaming up against the living and forgoing hostilities between one another. People do that in real life, such a thing has happened all throughout human history, and if you need some sort of binding to each after a sudden conflict against one enemy, that rarely ever happens. It might go against what we know from traditional story telling, but that's because it remains real and happens all the time. Even the Ghoul vs Vampire "war" that happened and still happens is mostly in fun. Even in a society built on deceit and backstabs, there are cultural rules.
I absolutely agree with all of this, I just don't see it as mutually exclusive from what I'm seeing. There are absolutely cultural rules, but those things break down from time to time. Entropy is a thing. Plus like... you know who probably isn't always concerned with rules and repercussions? Immortals. Particularly some that are driven by hunger and rage.... so like... deadhaus.

I imagine that yes, there is absolutely a strength and unity that is required, and that many powerful proponents of that exist... but I also think that if we remove the capacity for anyone to ever buck the system for any reason, that creates firstly, bad story telling, and secondly, eliminates a lot of potential storylines. Plus if the world is genuinely open to narative changes, the nature of who and what DH is, will have to change. It's entirely possible the DH might fall in the first age and simply be the namesake of the game, or it might hold and quell rebellions and such. Both cases offer exciting storytelling possibilities, and most importantly, it creates a semblance of consequence and actual player agency that is so rare in other games. I think it's healthy not to think of anything other than the designated atmosphere as a permanent structure, but more elements that exist to be interacted with and upon.

As for the undead, as I said a haus divided cannot stand, so chances there might be slight temporary deaths, but probably very few permanent deaths to the undead ranks by the undead themselves.
I would have to agree that there needs to be a cultural norm similar to the taboo associated with diablerie in VtM... but given what we know about how often that comes up in VtM games, it's safe to say that it's a valid story element.


Such as a Liche might ruin another Liche's experiment or steal the results. Backstabbing seems to be a common rule as long as you aren't caught directly.
Unless you have the power and might to weather the consequences...


1. Far more satisfying for the winner. 2. Encourages the defeated to get stronger for revenge. and 3. Makes sure that the overall numbers don't decrease at insane rates.
I think this is good, but doesn't account for the fact that some people are always going to be operating outside of society and sometimes, they will succeed.

In general as a player character, you aren't the normal run of the mill everyday boring NPC, you are instead the exception to the rule, because that's exciting and fun, and generally more interesting storytelling, and I think that's important to keep in mind.
 

klokwerkaos

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lol why does DHS need a tavern?? There are only 6 people per instance... it isn't going to be hundreds or thousands like WoW. I think this is kind of a pointless conversation tbh. I think the majority of plot will not be happening inside a club but rather on the battlefield.

I think the biggest problem here is that a few of us might have the "Chosen One" syndrome. The game is about the narrative as a whole, not you. The fact that they're considering permadeath proves that. I dunno, this whole thing just seems not only weird and out of place, but also like you're trying to make the game like so many other things already in the genre. Denis & co. have stated many times that they don't want to do what everyone else is doing. This post slips into cliché that I don't think the devs want. The Ages will span so much time and they're going cosmic horror of millennia, not zoomed in on time like from the perspective of the short lifespan of humans. What your character has to discuss at a tavern is meaningless.

Don't get me wrong, it's good to bounce ideas around. This is clearly a divisive one. Read as much of the lore as you can, though. Giving menial roles like bouncer and chef to the timeless undead is almost comical when you look at the pictures, read the lore and watch the radio plays.
I absolutely am not advocating for this to be what is suggested in your outline. Quite the opposite. In response to that I'm saying that player agency matters if narrative is to be a thing. I think perma death of a character is a viable option if it's handle well in the system. I can't say if it would be good or bad unless I know and understand the surrounding systems and mechanics. Ideally (for me) if it is a thing, there is a failsafe for players to not lose all progress they have made ever and ideally it's a story choice that is reached rather than a "oops you got ganked" situation.

*What your character has to discuss at a tavern is meaningless.*

I would have to strongly disagree if agency matters. Under the right conditions it can very much matter and possibly even have severe consequences.

*Read as much of the lore as you can, though. Giving menial roles like bouncer and chef to the timeless undead is almost comical when you look at the pictures, read the lore and watch the radio plays.*

I've been doing that I promise. More information leads to better thought out presentation.
 

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I absolutely am not advocating for this to be what is suggested in your outline. Quite the opposite. In response to that I'm saying that player agency matters if narrative is to be a thing. I think perma death of a character is a viable option if it's handle well in the system. I can't say if it would be good or bad unless I know and understand the surrounding systems and mechanics.

*What your character has to discuss at a tavern is meaningless.*

I would have to strongly disagree if agency matters. Under the right conditions it can very much matter and possibly even have severe consequences.

*Read as much of the lore as you can, though. Giving menial roles like bouncer and chef to the timeless undead is almost comical when you look at the pictures, read the lore and watch the radio plays.*

I've been doing that I promise. More information leads to better thought out presentation.
you gotta go and ruin it for the rest of us, huh?! what is the point of this anyway? for a start, your use of punctuation is non-existent and it definetly hurts my brain....however i finished your neverending thoughts..... you think your ideas are different, "edgy", "non-pedestrian", etc. however I see quite the opposite.
 

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Nothing will be ruined. The developers know what they want to do, and they will only do that which they believe is fitting with the world they are creating. We can remain assured of that.

The original post did indeed made it sound like something somewhat comical, but there is value behind it. Everything can serve as inspiration for something useful down the line. And if not, it served its own purpose. A purpose that we cannot always notice with our limited perspectives.

We must contribute to improve that which we can. That which we cannot, should remain untouched.
 

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I don't think mindless killing is always the answer, I do think it's an inevitable outcome though, on a long enough timeline... which we have given that we're effectively immortal.

Sometimes it's just easier to eliminate the problem at the root.

I absolutely agree with all of this, I just don't see it as mutually exclusive from what I'm seeing. There are absolutely cultural rules, but those things break down from time to time. Entropy is a thing. Plus like... you know who probably isn't always concerned with rules and repercussions? Immortals. Particularly some that are driven by hunger and rage.... so like... deadhaus.

I imagine that yes, there is absolutely a strength and unity that is required, and that many powerful proponents of that exist... but I also think that if we remove the capacity for anyone to ever buck the system for any reason, that creates firstly, bad story telling, and secondly, eliminates a lot of potential storylines. Plus if the world is genuinely open to narative changes, the nature of who and what DH is, will have to change. It's entirely possible the DH might fall in the first age and simply be the namesake of the game, or it might hold and quell rebellions and such. Both cases offer exciting storytelling possibilities, and most importantly, it creates a semblance of consequence and actual player agency that is so rare in other games. I think it's healthy not to think of anything other than the designated atmosphere as a permanent structure, but more elements that exist to be interacted with and upon.


I would have to agree that there needs to be a cultural norm similar to the taboo associated with diablerie in VtM... but given what we know about how often that comes up in VtM games, it's safe to say that it's a valid story element.



Unless you have the power and might to weather the consequences...



I think this is good, but doesn't account for the fact that some people are always going to be operating outside of society and sometimes, they will succeed.

In general as a player character, you aren't the normal run of the mill everyday boring NPC, you are instead the exception to the rule, because that's exciting and fun, and generally more interesting storytelling, and I think that's important to keep in mind.
So first off you say that the undead don’t have to care about rules and laws that presumably the undead have established. Second, we presumably aren’t that different from other undead NPC’s, we’re probably just some undead that want to actively hurt or hunt the living. That is if the undead don’t all do that anyway. Our characters are in no way special, no special powers or fate guiding us or anything. All that might be remembered are any major actions we preform. A player could from the first age could presumably be less known than a new player in say the 13th age if that player from the first age did nothing substanial.
 

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So first off you say that the undead don’t have to care about rules and laws that presumably the undead have established. Second, we presumably aren’t that different from other undead NPC’s, we’re probably just some undead that want to actively hurt or hunt the living. That is if the undead don’t all do that anyway. Our characters are in no way special, no special powers or fate guiding us or anything. All that might be remembered are any major actions we preform. A player could from the first age could presumably be less known than a new player in say the 13th age if that player from the first age did nothing substanial.
See I'm in absolute agreeance with your points, I think we just have differing perspectives about what that means.

I don't think either perspective though, is mutually exclusive or against the setting design notions.
 

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So far from all this it started as a restaurant, that then turned into the idea of what social societies might look like. While that is a really cool idea and worth talking about it seems that this point has been lost. However in the end it seems that this game may or may not allow for what is even being talked about. Sure there may be some hub where characters may have the ability to interact but this isnt necessarily a game where everyone and their best friend will be in 100% character. And even so probably not in a hub with a bunch of people but with the 6 person team that they will or will not be a part of.
 
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klokwerkaos

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So far from all this it started as a restaurant, that then turned into the idea of what social societies might look like. While that is a really cool idea and worth talking about it seems that this point has been lost. However in the end it seems that this game may or may not allow for what is even being talked about. Sure there may be some hub where characters may have the ability to interact but this isnt necessarily a game where everyone and their best friend will be in 100% character. And even so probably not in a hub with a bunch of people but with the 6 person team that they will or will not be a part of.
I know some people are super picky about the thread a conversation runs, I've never been one for that. I was on a pathfinder discord recently where if something deviated from a channels purpose for even 1 sentence a bunch of the community would shout how it has to go somewhere else (like some sort of weird power move or something), it wasn't even the moderators (who one would think are the primary folks in charge of maintaining things). To me that whole notion just stifles interactional and creativity, which is like, the opposite of what I think the goal should be in creative endeavors surrounding RP stuff, but any creative endeavor really.

As a long standing professional musician I know that the way to make a great song isn't to play over everyone else and tell everyone how stuff has to work, because that stifles all the creative expression that can happen with a collaborative work (see johnstoning techniques and such). Rather, you got to work with everyone to jam, and find the right parts where each voice is given the attention to shine best (unless Ringo is your drummer :p )

I tend to prefer that conversations and ideas occur organically since that's the best way in my experience to develop interesting ideas and inspirations in my experience.

That said, I feel like the reason a lot of the specifics of how the world and systems will interact isn't discussed in fine detail is because of a lot of the stuff in the project is firstly very ambitious (ie, is innovative and breaking new ground), and secondly how it will be implemented is probably still, in many ways, being sorted. Obviously some things are in motion, and some things have been said, but till we're at launch day I think it's safe to say some things will change, some won't and overall the team is likely dedicated to making the best game they can, I'm very much in agreeance with what @Golden Xan said on that.

I guess I'd just encourage people to think out of the box a bit. It's my belief that with enough creativity/imagination and world building a lot of these puzzles can be solved while maintaining the integrity of the setting. I tend to think that's true of any idea, regardless of merit.

Consider like... Unicorns are traditionally not a grimdark element. Give me a bit of time though, and it will be ;) you just gotta mock up the right visual elements, and then take the existing happy fluffy and rather than "punch it up" you "edge lord it up" some and bam, evil, dark, scary and nightmarish unicorns can be a thing.

A good example of this would be the "ghost" challenge done by SAINT from the halloween special of dragula. White sheet ghost costumes aren't scary and/or portrayals of horror... until you see that and you're horrified with glee :D
 
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I am not sure about the whole restaurant idea but there will certainly be meeting places to work out treaties or plan events. If you have not yet read Seven Suns. It really sets a great scene and an idea of how the factions interact. https://deadhaussonata.com/lore/